The Recall Game

instead of letting the dog learn how to get in CONTROL of his rewards by his response, then you can end up with a dog who is not interested in doing anything with you unless you have food on his nose.

 
yeah, this is actually a fairly common roblem that isn't confined to food-- the owner accidently teaches the dog to ignore him until he whips out the food or the ball, or puts the special training collar on, or leashes the dog, or wears a bait pouch.

ORIGINAL: britney

Points one, two and four are spot on the money.  As is the game.  However I would no more treat my dog than beat it. 

If praise isnt enough then the dog doesnt really understand the fact that the owner is wise enough to give undying devotion to.  Such devotion that will lead to unquestioning obedience to any command it can understand. 

Hey, will you come to work for me?  I promise to smile a lot and tell you how wonderful you are, but I'm never going to pay you any money. [sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]


BTW, the recall game you describe, RR, is similar to the techniques and principles Leslie Nelson teaches in "Really Reliable Recall".
I treat my dogs, I play tug, I throw a ball, we "go for a ride", I let them chase a squirrel.  Anything they like is a reward.  They work their little heads off for me like I am the queen of the universe - why?  Because they know that every once in a while it isn't only praise - it's garlic roast beef, or the frisbee.  And, because I don't make the classic error of bribing.   As long as the reward follows the behavior, it isn't a bribe, it's simply another form of reinforcement.  Training should be fun for the dog as well as the human.

If what we will be doing is so worthwhile that I just have to be in on the ground floor I sure will work for you for free.  Just to be a part of something worthwhile.  If its just the same old drudgery that everyone else does you'd probably have to bribe me to do it.

ORIGINAL: RedyreRottweilers

There is absolutely no lack of any bond of love and respect between me and this dog.

I wasn't trying to suggest there was.  I mainly mentioned that in the context of people implying that  feeding myself before I feed the dog or keeping her off my bed means I must constantly beat her to get a result.  If the only reason she obeys me is out of fear then that is the same as saying that the only reason people obey the law is out of fear. 

In reality, most people follow the law coz they can understand that it is fair and just.  If a dog sees the owner in that light they will be inclined to do what that owner wants. 

In reality, most people follow the law coz they can understand that it is fair and just. If a dog sees the owner in that light they will be inclined to do what that owner wants.

 
I disagree. Most people only follow the law out of fear, or simple laziness (takes a lot of work to plan a bank robbery, and you might get caught, so why bother). And it's not a very effective method either. I and most people routinely break traffic laws, after glancing around to see if any cops are in sight. Think of it this way: would you be more likely to drive under the speed limit on the highway if  a) you knew there was a chance the cops might stop you for speeding and give you a ticket (owner corrects dog for misbehaving when he catches the dog in the act), or b) you knew your car would explode if you went over the speed limit (owner straps automatic bark collar on dog that barks too much), or c) the cops might randomly stop you for driving under the speed limit and give you $1000 dollars (owner has dog on random reinforcement schedule and offers a great reward sometimes for good behavior), or d) the cops are likely to stop you for driving under the speed limit and thank you and shake your hand? (owner rewards dog with nothing but praise, every time dog is good).
 
I think I'd respond quite well to method b or c, get rather demotivated by method d, and just look around for cops before misbehaving in response to method a.
 

Dogs are innocently selfish. They do what WORKS for them. When what works for them involves a food reward, there is almost no limit to the intricate, complicated, and long duration behaviors and behavior chains that can be taught.

This works well with ALL mammals. (Sea World marine mammal shows come to mind).s

I train my dog because it's necessary and makes them easy to live with. I train competition obedience because I like building that bond with my dog, and I like the competition, AND because IT'S FUN. Moving away from aversives towards a more positive training approach, including the use of food in shaping and rewarding behaviors has just made it more fun for me AND the dogs.

Agree about all of that.  But my point in bringing up other opitions to the food  training is as I've said, turns into a trap for many people.  I have proof and Ive had it before, that dogs can be persuaded in ways that you don't have to remember to take with you.  My dog is far and away the star of the dogpark.  Which I guess would be obedience level.  Just different rules.  Food training works when its done properly. But many people just ask for some advice to be going on with and don't  follow it to the end.  So I try to give general advice to strangers who ask that makes them think about how to communicate to the dog rather than simply getting one result at a time. 

Out of interest, how do you treat train a dog to leave it?  Or do you use other methods?

Most people only follow the law out of fear, or simple laziness (takes a lot of work to plan a bank robbery, and you might get caught, so why bother). And it's not a very effective method either. I and most people routinely break traffic laws, after glancing around to see if any cops are in sight.

So if its good enough for people, its good enough for dogs.  And just like most people can obey the law without ever going to jail, dogs can be taught the laws without ever getting hit.  Just keep sending the signals that they understand show them where they stand. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I treat my dogs, I play tug, I throw a ball, we "go for a ride", I let them chase a squirrel.  Anything they like is a reward.  They work their little heads off for me like I am the queen of the universe - why?  Because they know that every once in a while it isn't only praise - it's garlic roast beef, or the frisbee.  And, because I don't make the classic error of bribing.   As long as the reward follows the behavior, it isn't a bribe, it's simply another form of reinforcement.  Training should be fun for the dog as well as the human.

Actually, it's only reinforcement if it increases the behavior. If it doesn't it's not reinforcement. If your dog doesn't like your treats, or doesn't like your treats more than he or she liked doing whatever he/she was doing prior to your asking for a different behavior, than your treats aren't going to increase the behavior, and it is not reinforcement. As far as I am aware, bribing is not defined behaviorally, or if it is, I have never seen it.

Anyway, using treats does not make a dog dependent on treats. Even when Max knows I don't have treats, he'll still listen. He wanted to drag me down the street earlier tonight to try to catch up to the neighbor and her dog. I rarely bring treats with when we go for a walk, and if I do, he is usually very aware of it. But still, when I decided we needed to take a break to let them get ahead of us far enough, I sat on a bench and told him to sit next to me, and he got right up there with me. He knew he wasn't getting anything, but it's been reinforced enough times that it's ok.

This is the method I use to train leave it.

From [linkhttp://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt]http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt[/link]

Category: Puppy Stuff ¤
Author: Shirley Chong ¤
Title: Bite Inhibition ¤

Well, the people have spoken!

Following is the article about bite inhibition I wrote for a magazine article. It will also be incorporated into my (almost done) seminar workbook.

M. Shirley Chong
The Well Mannered Dog

I was the kid who always tried to color inside the lines and obey all the rules, so of course I wasn't about to allow my brand new puppy, Fergie (another German Shepherd) bite. But when I watched her with Sheba, most of their play was mouth play. They played tug of war, they wrestled, and most fun of all, they laid face to face and jaw wrestled while making a singsong wrestling growl. I wanted in on it, too. I didn't get a puppy just so Sheba could have all the fun! I noticed that Fergie had bitten Sheba a little too hard a few times and Sheba had somehow taught her to keep her bite soft. I thought that I could probably figure out how to do it as well. The books said that if I let Fergie bite me or play tug of war, she would think of me as a littermate and try to dominate me. However, I could see that Sheba had no trouble at all maintaining her position as Fergie's superior. In fact, sometimes Sheba had to encourage Fergie to play by rolling over on her back and waving her front feet at Fergie. Sheba didn't make a big show out of being superior; as far as I could see, she simply assumed she was and Fergie went along with that. So did every other dog that Sheba met, even when Sheba was a dignified old lady of fifteen. Well, I could do that, too.

For years it was my secret: I played with my dogs by letting them mouth wrestle with my hands. They never tried to dominate me and they only did it in play. I continued reading and found something startling: there were actual experts who talked about bite inhibition. When I read the description of bite inhibition it was exactly what I called "biting nice" to myself.

So now I'm out of the closet. Not only do I play mouth games with all my dogs, I actually teach them to play mouth games and tug of war! This is all about how I do it and why I do it.

From watching puppies and from talking to experienced breeders, I learned that its normal for puppies between about six and sixteen weeks old to be obsessed with playfighting. When two puppies of this age meet, they want to wrestle. At this age, Mother Nature has given them needle sharp puppy teeth, so they can really sting each other but they can't cause serious damage. I believe that the lesson that puppies learn at this age is the most important one a puppy can learn: how much bite is enough and how much bite is too much.

Any dog, no matter how stable of temperament, can be pushed into a position where they feel they must bite to defend themselves. The difference between the dog that administers a good hard pinch to the tormenting six year old human and the dog that rips the six year old's face off is bite inhibition.

The traditional methods of teaching puppies never to bite include things like scruff shakes, cuffing the puppy under the chin or the infamous "alpha wolf rollover." A very common complaint by people who use these methods is that the puppy turns around and bites harder. Two puppies playing together egg each other on by jumping on each other, poking at each other with their feet, and wrestling! No wonder many puppies come back and bite harder--their human is giving them every indication they should.

How do puppies learn bite inhibition? By biting! Trying to teach a puppy bite inhibition without allowing them to bite is like trying to teach a child to ride a bike without ever letting them get on the bike. It just can't be done.

How do puppies learn when they've bitten too hard? They give each other feedback. Just enough bite is rewarded with more play. Too much bite and the other puppy yelps and stops playing. It works for humans too: let the puppy bite and give a very high pitched yelp if there's too much pressure. A normal puppy will back off for an instant. If the human is a good actor, the puppy will do some self calming by shaking or sitting down to scratch or else apologize by giving a lick. It's often best to rehearse your high pitched IPE! or OUCH! in private before trying it out on your puppy.

If the puppy comes right back and bites harder, give another high pitched yelp and walk away. Go somewhere the puppy can't reach you. The message: puppies that can't play nice play alone.

Some people roll the puppy's lip over their teeth either to prevent biting or to promote bite inhibition. This is not as effective because the puppy has to learn to moderate their bite without the feedback of pain from their own nervous system. Very quickly, the puppy learns how much bite is enough to make the game fun and how much bite stops the game altogether. They bite and mouth but they do it in such a way that it doesn't hurt at all.

Figure out how to initiate mouthplay with your puppy. It's usually pretty obvious--certain body postures, hand gestures, etc, will get the puppy to playing.

There are times, though, when you'd really rather not be covered with puppy slime (hard to imagine but true). What you need is a signal to let your puppy know when not to bite. I teach this in a very methodical way, so that it becomes absolutely clear to the puppy.

Get a nice, smelly, really high on the delicious scale treat, let the puppy know you have it and then close your hand over it. Let the puppy lick, snuffle, poke, nudge, delicately nibble and try to get that treat out of your hand. Eventually the puppy will give up and back away or turn their head away--CLICK and open your hand so they can get the treat.

This is what I call Doggie Zen: to get the treat, you must give up the treat. It's the basis for most training--the foundation of "do what I want and then we'll do what you want." Learning Doggie Zen is the beginning of learning emotional control.
If your puppy bites harder than is acceptable, yelp and pull your hand up out of their reach for a minute. The first few times you do this, it may take quite a while for the puppy to give up. Just be patient, smile and say NOTHING. The puppy will eventually give up. Practice this exercise several times a day and in as many different places (at home, in the yard, at the park, in other people's houses, etc) as you can find.

Very quickly, the puppy will start to back away when they see you hold out your closed hand. Voila! You have a signal! However, you might prefer a verbal command. When the puppy is predictably backing up when you present your closed hand, it's time to insert the verbal command. Say "Leave It!" sweetly, hold out your closed hand, click (when the puppy backs away) and open your hand. Anticipation (which dogs excel at) will take over and the puppy will realize that the words "Leave It!" mean you're about to hold out your closed hand. When the puppy backs up well on the words "Leave It!" it's time to incorporate this command into new situations. When you go into a new situation, though, you have to go all the way back to kindergarten. The easiest way to do it is to sit down and SILENTLY place the treat on a chair next to you (assuming your puppy is large enough to reach the seat of that chair). Let the puppy try to pry the treat out from under your hand until the puppy gives up. When the puppy backs up or turns their head away, click and move your hand so the puppy can get the treat. The puppy will learn to back off a bit quicker than they did the first time. When the puppy is backing off when your hand goes over the treat, it's time to add in the verbal "Leave It!" to this situation. Then start a new situation by dropping the treat on the floor and covering it with your foot. Again, you'll have to go back to kindergarten and re-teach it. This time, it should all go just a bit quicker.

Keep figuring out new situations. Keep going back to kindergarten to re-teach the "Leave It!" It will go just a little faster each time.

By the time your puppy reliably backs away from you when you say "Leave It!" no matter what the circumstances are or where you are, your puppy will be about four months old. Now it's time to start incorporating "Leave It!" when your puppy wants to mouthplay. Start off gradually, using "Leave It!" to stop mouthplay once every ten times the puppy initiates mouthplay. Click and treat when the puppy backs off. If the puppy doesn't back off, walk away and give the puppy a time out. Over time, use "Leave It!" when your puppy initiates mouthplay more and more often.

When your puppy is about six to seven months old, use "Leave It!" whenever your puppy initiates mouthplay. Don't give up mouthplay altogether, though! You worked hard to develop that soft mouth and it's like any skill that depends in part on muscle memory--it needs to be practiced to keep it fresh.

Copyright 1997 Meesoon Shirley Chong

   

Thats good as it goes but its not quite what I meant.  For me, I like to have a command that means forget what you were thinking of doing but apart from that, carry on as you were.  So if I see a freshie at the dog park I can stop little puppy from talking to their dog without calling her back to me.  The way I do this is to set some limits to acceptable behaviour on a walk.  And when she goes to break the laws I can simply apply the command in a voice that demands obedience.  And rightr there I get some behaviour that I can reinforce. 

Speaking of which, I was down there tonight and some great danes come up to play  The male was as friendly as one would expect.  But sure enough the bitch wanted to have at my bitch.  So instead of disadvantaging my itty bitty, I simply went the "GETOUTOFIT" rout on a voice that got the job done for all concerned. Which is a perfect example of how going down the dominant road pays a lot more than being teat dependent.  Perhaps I should point out her that the other owners were looking distinctly at a loss when it wnt off.  And afterwards were full of apologies.  I'm sure the situation would've been entirely different if my crossbeed mutt  looked less like a pit bull.  For a start, they'd've been more concerned about possible litigation. 

My dogs are not treat dependent.

I would never EVER take one of my dogs to a dog park. I AVOID places where other dogs are off leash.

I can also tell you that if you, as an unknown stranger, tried to strongly verbally correct 2 of my bitches, you would get a response, and it would not be obedient. LOL

Leave it, trained as above, leads to exactly what you are speaking of. It teaches the dog to STOP focusing on whatever they were when you use those words. Like any training or command, it requires work and regular reinforcement for it to become a solid and ingrained behavior.

I am absolutely dominant with my dogs, but I prefer to work with them in a partner relationship whenever possible.

You are only allowed to use a leash in competition obedience during a portion of the novice exercises. From then on, the dog is free in the ring with you, and must CHOOSE to work with you. Yes, you can dominate a dog into working with you, but that is not the road I choose to go down with my dogs. I want people to gather around when I'm showing a dog in the obedience ring and admire the enthusiasm and attitude of my dog and I as a team. I want my dog to present the UTMOST in willingness and enthusiasm when working with me. Control is imperitive, I agree, however, I don't agree that one must use dominance, correction, punishment, or harsh loud voices to get it.

  JMO as always.

I would never EVER take one of my dogs to a dog park. I AVOID places where other dogs are off leash.

Whereas  I would see that as  the basics of having a trained dog.  Suddenly I see obedience as lacking if your rules cant deal with the unexpected.  At this stage I got to say that that is what people admire about little puppy.  the fact that her training dont go to pieces once ther are some distractions involved  My Gooodness. If you can't teach bombproof commands what are you here for?

I got to say that my (much disparaged) hierarchy stuff which is good to go on complete strangere dogs cold trumps your treat training speaks volumes.  And you know what? I will smack a strange dog with a big stick if they think that the basics are somehow up for grabs.  But mere than that, it never comes to that coz I can lay down the basics before a dog ever thinks about trying it on. 

I avoid places where dogs are off leash, because if a strange dog rushes up to mine rudely, and my dog retaliates, my ROTTWEILER will get the blame.

"Fair call, I don't mean to disparage you rmethods.  But by thesame token, my own pitty knock-off got the same, but slightly more pronounced, problems your dog does.  the reason I mnention  a willingness to go the tonk is because that is what give s me the freedom to call off other peoples, untrained, dogs.  You know what, it has in the recent  past let me call off a macho dog owner or two as well.  Like I say, the pupy aint trained for the ring.  She's trained to present herself as some kind of bombproff fight free zone.

And to be honest, if you aint preparde to take your dog to the dogpark, I really cant see what it is that you are trying to teach me.