AKC and protection sport, what do you think?

I do AKC stuff.  Conformation, coursing, agility, rally, and therapy visits (okay, that's not AKC, but maybe it should be).  And, everything other than agility seems a bit like an after-thought.  I don't know if that's coming from the breed fancy, the parent club or the AKC.  Perhaps people with other breeds have other experiences?  Of course part of it might be the breed I've chosen, but dual champions (conformation and lure coursing) are not nearly as rare in basenjis as they are in some other breeds.  There is not a split between conf and LC basenjis as we're begining to see in whippets.  And the 2 different whippets are closer to the same breed than many of the sporting breeds.  I know this is a little off-topic, and perhaps I should start a new thread, but some of the stuff above got me thinking. 

For me the epitome of any breed is the Dual Champion (or Triple, Quad, Quint Champion).  That is what the guardians of the breeds should emphasize and strive for.  Sadly, that seems to be rare, or at least not coveted like I think it should be. 

Now, as far as the AKC goes, it does seem that everything is getting more expensive, and perhaps that is not the AKC's fault, but it does seem that the AKC is wanting to get their hands on all things dog.  Any sort of competition, toys, shampoos, etc.  It just seems a bit much. 
 
 
edited to correct:
Everything other than conformation seems a bit like an afterthought.

either way xeph, I thnk that the AKC and the CanKC need to bring together the conformation and the sports more so that the breeds do not split anymore
 
we will end up with 2 lab standards soon at this rate field and show, it is really sad that this has happened
 
I agree that a dog should have to prove it can work, but there are some breeds that this will not work well for, but if it is in working, herding or sporting it should have to have 2 titles.  The Can KC Ch. is just way to easy to obtain, 10 points no majors just 10 points, and too many people but alot of stock in that, I want a dog that can work next time and wil only buy one from proven dogs, in conformation and trials.

we will end up with 2 lab standards soon at this rate field and show, it is really sad that this has happened

 
At least you still have one single standard.  The GSD standard in AKC and the GSD standard in the SV are different.  Similar, but still different.  It's sad.
 
I find it interesting the way people use dual champs here.  It's different.  To me, a dual champion has always been (and this is also what I've been taught) a dog that has a title in two countries, such as Am/Can.  Two championships = dual championships.  Performance championships are something entirely different to me.
 
Anyway, I'd love to have a champion in work as well as show, however, certain things can prevent one (usually show) from happening.  Take for example my GSDs floppy ear.  He's disqualified from the ring, but he still works just fine.  Or what about blue Rottweilers?  They can still herd and protect just as well...coat color doesn't matter in that respect, but they'll sure never become conformation champions.
 
Also, I thought that for a canadian championship, you needed one "major" win?

Ok if we are going to want to get into wish lists.  I want the AKC to require breed specific health test verification of results prior to awarding any CH.  I want to see breed champs titled in a minium of one other venue (companion or performance).  I come from one of the most titled at both ends breeds.  I would even accept performance titles from other venues or organizations (remember this is pipe dreams [])
 
I understand what folks are saying about wanting dogs to be able to do the work.  Does that mean openning up protection sport to any dog with a documented history in protection work?  Not to pick on anyone by any means, but staffs and other bull terrier breeds should then be allowed, lets not forget standard poodles, dalmations, airedailes, ridgebacks, etc. 
 
I am not opposed to protection sport at all.  I do however disagree with AKC getting involved.  I see too many dogs who are not ready to compete in the venues already established and protection sport to me needs to be a cut above what I am usually seeing in novice handlers.
 
I also know that there are way to many folks who think they want a working mal, and then decided to make some money breeding them.  Rescue deals with these dogs on a regular basis and a large number of them are absolute nightmares.  When I think of the LAPD breeding their own dogs, getting dogs street ready by 1 year and then selling the wash outs to the general public through their non profit foundation, I shudder.  A service dog wash out is a whole lot different than a protection dog wash out.  Most of the general public and a fair amount of the dog fancy in performance sports have no idea how to deal with a high drive dog.

Interesting fact, we have had dual champions go BISS.  There have been OTCH tervs and Mach tervs go BISS.  Since stats started in '61, 23 had performance titles after their names at the time of the win.  Many others added titles following that win.  A number of the dogs are UDTs.    In the herding competitions (total of 18 specialties had trials) 13 of the HIT dogs had their championships.

So we dont have a split yet, but it could easily happen.  I think it is most obvious when you look at the working mals verses the "other" mals.  The biggest difference you see is in type. Temperments can be screwy in both working and conformation lines.  The majority of owners I know are not equiped for malinois.  I really dont want the AKC involved in protection sport because of the impact it may have on some breeding programs. 

I have a feeling that many of the breeds that did not want to be included in the AKC protection did so for the reasons you stated mrv.  Bully breeds have enough problems without wingnuts turning them into protection dogs.  You are most definatly right about the Belgian Shepherds as well very few know what to do with them, look how many Border Collie and Jack (Parson) Russell Terriers are put in rescue each year because people don't understand how to deal with them, let alone a dog with the drive and capabilities of the Malinois. 
 
The parent clubs are unlikly to change their minds ever or at least until the AKC has proven that they have a stable program for this venue.  There are all kind of people that know about ScH because of outdoor life network showing trial on TV, I doubt that the AKC will make protection sports any more previlant as most people that attend dog shows are already aware of the previous sports.  Maybe more people will see the sport and accept it as a dog sport, many feel it is cruel and the dogs unmanagble, once they see the opposite they may be more accepting.
 
I totally agree with the Police Dog training, and the washouts.  I know it takes many years to train a ScH 4 dog.  This training has been around for a great number of years, and how the Police have managed to cram that much training into a year kinda scares me.  At 1 a German Shepherd or Malinois are still pups, yet by 2 they are fully trained and on the streets.  Here, in Alberta, RCMP are not allowed to own any other dogs either so the retirees are re-homed, or the handler cannot be part of a K-9 team until his old partner has passed on, that is sad too me as well.
 
I am not opposed to protection sport at all.  I do however disagree with AKC getting involved.  I see too many dogs who are not ready to compete in the venues already established and protection sport to me needs to be a cut above what I am usually seeing in novice handlers.
I agree that they will have to step up their rings and training levels before they can move on, I do hope that they put the emphasis on obediance not the bite work, but for that we will have to wait and see.
 
Going to the working dog this is what I was trying to say about the poor family that gets the field bred lab not the show bred lab.  Field labs are gogogo all day, and harder to train for calm and quiet.  Show labs tend to be lumps of retrieving dogs that are just as happy to lay at your feet or retrieve a few balls in the yard.
 
I would be careful to watch the breed standard between there and the US, look at what they managed to do to the Akita, now knowen as 2 breeds most places the American Akita, and the Akita Inu, that is too bad, here we only see the fat heavey boned giant american ones, none of the nice lean working japanese lines.

the AKC could easily fix these problems. All they have to do is change their registration policies and insist that only puppies from health-tested parents who have both a conformation and a performance title of some type can be registered. We don't want floppy-eared GSDs to be bred, and we don't want neurotic no-drive GSDs to be bred. This policy change would fix both problems. For breeds with no traditional "performance" venue, well, surely they can earn obedience titles.

Doubt that policy will ever happen.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Xeph

I participate in schutzhund, I learn, I work hard, and WAY too many people focus on the bitework!  Even ones who know about the sport!  Yes, we live in a sue happy society, yes, there is liability...but there's liability in EVERY dog sport!  Look at the dog aggressive dogs shown in agility, or dogs that go so crazy with prey drive, you can't get them under control, or dogs that are just CRAZY in general and cause a big scene at an obedience trial!

Speaking strictly about schutzhund, hasn't anybody noticed that bitework is teh LAST phase?  Obedience, Tracking, Protection.  That's the order.

I for one am TIRED of taking my lumps and worrying about average Joe Stupid.  I try and educate people I know about schutzhund.  AKC won't accept schutzhund titles on pedigrees...well, they're making their own working dog program, and I think that's a step in the right direction!

 
Well, bitework is something that needs to be taken seriously.  Teaching a dog to see biting people as a game is no small matter. 
 
If you don't want to have to worry about the average Joe, than you should not want the AKC to pick this up, because it will be even a bigger concern if they do.
 
I also really worry about whether this will have a negative effect on how people see the breeds participating.  I watched a police dog demo with German Shepards at our county fair last week.  The girl who was with me has a dog (although she really isn't a "dog person" per say), and is not afraid of dogs or anything.  After seeing the demo she made a negative comment about GSDs, pertaining to them being dangorous.  I explained that these dogs are highly trained, yadda, yadda, yadda, under their handlers control, and that the average GSD is not trained for police work etc, but I could tell she was not buying it. 
 
Seeing the demo gave me a great repect for these dogs and handlers, but for her it gave her a reason to fear the breed.
 
I'm not saying that therefore nobody should do shutzhund, but it is food for thought.  Will turning on Animal Planet and seeing rotties do bite work hurt their image, or help it?

But sillysally you cna already turn on the tv and see all kinds of bite work, at least here in Canada. We have a channel called outdoor life and they have a show called top dogs, they have all kinds of dog work on it from skijorring, and sledding, hunt trial, retrieve work, ground trials, agility, frisbee comps, as well as the ScH and police dogs comps as well. If dogs do it they show it, right now it is agility.

I think that having the AKC do protection work will not open it up for wingnuts because most people that attend shows tend to be dog crazies already.

ORIGINAL: ruffian

But sillysally you cna already turn on the tv and see all kinds of bite work, at least here in Canada. We have a channel called outdoor life and they have a show called top dogs, they have all kinds of dog work on it from skijorring, and sledding, hunt trial, retrieve work, ground trials, agility, frisbee comps, as well as the ScH and police dogs comps as well. If dogs do it they show it, right now it is agility.

I think that having the AKC do protection work will not open it up for wingnuts because most people that attend shows tend to be dog crazies already.

 
I watch Animal Planet a lot, and the only time I've seen actualy bite work was in a police dog competition.
 
It would never have occured to me that someone would be negatively affected by seeing bite work, but this individual, who is pretty level headed, was.  It's just something to consider, especially with BSL breathing down our necks....

And, everything other than agility seems a bit like an after-thought.

 
Drat, that should be "everything other than conformation seems like an after-thought.

Interesting fact, we have had dual champions go BISS.

 
Yes, basenjis have too.
 
 

 There have been OTCH tervs and Mach tervs go BISS.

 
Ah, well, OTCH and MACH basenjis are a mythical creatures.  I think we will see a MACH basenji, hopefully in my life time, but an OTCH basenji is just something that I don't think I'll ever see. 
 
I do think that perserving the dual purpose of a breed is attractive to me in looking for a breed of dog.  The non-basenji in the household is a malinois.

The gators often have multiple titles at both ends as well.  Just havent check the specialty website for the numbers yet. My current wish list is for HC/CH duals, we havent had that in any of the belgians (yet)

Here's a thought... people within AKC thought folks were put off by how hard Obedience titles were to obtain, so they created Rally as a less stringent option to encourage newcomers to the sport of dog obedience.  (At least that's the way it's always been explained to me.)
 
To me, that says they're desperate for an audience/customer/participant, and not that they're trying to maintain or elevate the sport.  Trust me, I like Rally - we have fun.  I'm just using it to illustrate a point.
 
What happens when AKC develops "Intro to Protection" - the lesser version?  Plus, what is the criteria to even qualify to enter your dog into AKC Protection sport?  We've all seen dogs fail at various levels of AKC sports, even the CGC for crying out loud... failing at Protection in a popular venue with plenty of spectators would be very detrimental, I think.  The more popular and mainstream, the more likely this situation would be set up.
 
The clubs that currently do protection work make your participation HARDER than just signing up and forking over $25 entry fees.  You'd get your a#$# handed to you if you showed up ill-prepared and endangered anyone else.  There's a reason Schutzhund has the BH.  What will AKC do?