opinions on coon hunting?

Many animal rights folks are strongly against what they call "exploiting" animals.  Now, to me that means those awful circuses where they chain up the animals, and puppymills.  But many animal rights people even think what I do - training dogs to work livestock - is "exploitation" - and similiarly, hunting with dogs is the same thing. 

There's the element of "harrassing" the target animal, chasing them around with dogs.  There's the element of what it takes to train the dogs to harness their instincts in a constructive and safe way.  These same people would also be against any other working dog training - mushing, service dog, public safety, you name it.  But livestock work and hunting are at the top of their lists because of the additional animals involved.

It's all kind of silly to me.  Working stock with dogs is usually the most humane way to handle them - they are simply responding to the presence of the dogs in a natural way instead of being jolted with cattle prods or harrassed and "bumped" by various motor vehicles that they don't understand (including helicopters).   And the dogs love to do it.  It is impossible to "make" a properly-bred dog work. 

Similiarly, the coonhounds are born to hunt.  I'm not a big fan of the e-collars but I understand needing control for the safety of the dog.  Properly used, the dog has a choice whether a correction will be issued or not.  And it's way better than the old days when bee-bees were shot at them and so forth.

Keep in mind- there's a difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

Coonhunters typically keep dogs in kennels, and their breeding and husbandry practices can be very old-fashioned- health testing happens indifferently and how a dog hunts is much more important than his pedigree or conformation as long as he's not so bad as to break down. These things tend to make them run afoul of some of the more.. um.. enthusiastic? Less flexible? people who love animals.  That said, they typically DO love and care for their dogs well, and are one of the last remaining 'types' of dogs to be retained for their original function- I think coonhounds may be the only large working hound remaining in any real numbers in the US- I think they and foxhounds (which they outnumber significantly) are the only two hounds still allowed to be used to hunt anything larger than rabbits.

Becca, in addition to being against stock dogs, it's my understanding that some groups, such as PETA, are against the sheep being kept as well. Many groups want to outlaw any and all hunting, even those dog sports that don't kill the prey, such as some earthdog sports, and some coon hunts. The bird field trial folks, as well as the coon hound people know they are under attack, and are very sensitive to the "animal rights" agenda.

okay, that makes more sense. I guess I was mainly caught off guard by the anti-Humane Society sentiments b/c it seems general feelings toward them are positive, and I have never thought of the HSUS as in the same camp as, say, PETA.   Does anyone know if the Humane Society is actually anti-hunting? Now that I think of it I do recall that they are anti-mushing which has always surprised me. 

I gotta say as the owner of a pet coonhound (and I'm a vegetarian too) there's certainly no love lost between me and your typical houndsman. I am anti-hunting (if you're eating the animal it's one thing, but most coonhunters don't actually eat those coons, it's purely for the sport and I really can't be down with that) and anti-animal exploitation. I'm anti-PETA because of their extremism making the rest of us look bad and their anti-pet stance, but I am a big supporter of HSUS.
 
There's a difference between allowing a working dog to do their work and exploiting and abusing them, and many people with working animals cross that line big time. HSUS isn't against mushing because of the dogs doing work but because many people involved in the organized sport of mushing do not care for their dogs as well as they should. Dogs die on the Iditarod every single year. Houndsmen similarily may be engaged in a dog sport and very into the pedigree and training of their dogs, but these dogs are not pets and are not cared for as such most of the time. Reading about how most of these people train and keep their hounds is like going back in time 50 years, even for things that have little to do with the actual hunting task (dogs barking in their kennel cuz their bored out of their minds? just blast 'em with a high-powered hose!). I've visited various coonhound forums and sites and I am always pretty much universally APPALLED.
 
Coonhunters also tend to hate coonhound rescuers. There was a big flap on one of the major coonhound websites because a new member made the mistake of suggesting the group donate money to a coonhound rescue. All sorts of shouts of "OMG ARA TERRORISTS!" erupted because the rescue was against the usual treatment coonhounds recieve at the hands of coonhunters and rescued abused (seriously, not made-up abused) dogs. Many coonhounds are kept outside chained to their doghouses (I've seen several posts on boards lamenting the death of dogs who hung themselves), and I also can't be down with that.
 
This isn't to say all coonhunters are like this--I've encountered a few who really take wonderful care of their dogs, but in my experience houndsmen are way more exploitive of their animals than, say, bird dog or gun dog owners. Like many working breeds, the work that coonhounds do has really lost its relevance, and I think more and more that's something that the dog community is going to have to confront eventually. I personally think that coonhounds make fantastic pets because of their characteristic temperment, but I'd be accused of being an Animal Rights Fanatic if I suggested that to most houndsmen.

re: relevance: See, my experience with raccoons has been pretty universally negative- it may be from living in the country versus in the city. Raccoons are HORRIBLY destructive, aggressive towards other pests, and it's either shoot them or chase them far enough from home that they don't WANT to come back...

I'm not fond of people who keep dogs tied, but most of the GOOD coonhound people have proper kennels- somewhere I have photos of a lovely foxhound kennel that I was lucky enough to visit, and frankly, shelters should copy it! Beautifully easy to keep clean and sanitary, designed NOT to echo, comfy for dog and humans-visiting-dogs- it's not the foot of the bed, no, but the dogs have never KNOWN the foot of the bed- and won't until they retire, in most cases.

BTW.... where did you get the statistic that dogs die yearly on the Iditarod? I've always heard that tons and tons get pulled out by the vet checkpoints, but it's been a real rarity to hear of one actually DYING?

[linkhttp://www.helpsleddogs.org/faq.htm]http://www.helpsleddogs.org/faq.htm[/link]
 
note they don't tell you how many dogs die after completing the race or being pulled by the vets. I'd guess quite a few. Same with horse sports-- endurance horses rarely drop dead while on course, but some do die a day or two afterwards.

Thanks mudpuppy for posting that, I was just about to go find the link.
 
I really think this is going to be a continuing issue in the dog world. The work our dogs were bred to do is increasingly not really relevent anymore and so many people wind up with problems with their dogs for lack of having work for them to do. Most of the organized working dog trials are fairly artifical, including coonhound nite trials. Because of the rules of the trials, hounds are trained to do a pretty different set of tasks than on a freeform hunt. I've read that the same is true in beagling as well.
 
Coonhunting really has very little impact on nuisance racoon populations in inhabited areas (because who runs their hounds in inhabited areas?), so I don't really see that as a good reason to view most coonhounds' modern-day work as useful. Though I must admit I've never had any problem, living either in the country or the city, with nuisance animals on my property because my property reeks of Large Predator Animals. Any small mammals with any sense at all tend to stay far away! I know, however, that coonhounds also make excellent trackers of large predator animals (anything that trees such as bears and bobcats) that many ranchers will employ as insurance against attacks on their stock. That I'd consider a useful working coonhound.
 
So, is there a way to begin to breed these working dogs to be better companions while still retaining some vestiges of the working drives that make them interesting little fellas to have around? I'd say that retrievers are approaching a point as a breed that they're primarily bred as pets rather than gun dogs because their natural working drives just make them attentive and trainable. Have there been drives to change the breed traits that make them hard to handle as pets but work well for them in a working capacity? Hyperness? I'd be interested to hear whether that's something that's happening.

ORIGINAL: houndlove


So, is there a way to begin to breed these working dogs to be better companions while still retaining some vestiges of the working drives that make them interesting little fellas to have around? I'd say that retrievers are approaching a point as a breed that they're primarily bred as pets rather than gun dogs because their natural working drives just make them attentive and trainable. Have there been drives to change the breed traits that make them hard to handle as pets but work well for them in a working capacity? Hyperness? I'd be interested to hear whether that's something that's happening.

I realize I'm not even addressing the original topic--but I'm really bothered by "dumbing down" working breeds to turn them into pets. The dog teamed up with mankind some 10,000 years ago, as a working partner. Although some breeds have been primarily developed as companions (and parasite-magnets!), most were developed to work--assisting with hunting, managing domestic livestock, guarding humans and their property. Specifically breeding away from working ability just seems horrible to me!
Repurposing breeds whose jobs have been rendered obsolete (i.e. weight-pulling competition for bull-baiting breeds, lure-coursing for sighthounds) seems reasonable to me. But dumbing down drive to make better pets? That doesn't seem right.
Look what we've done to Great Danes. Lovely dogs, of course. Great companions. But we've bred all the drive out of them. Since we no longer hunt wild boar with packs of dogs, their job is gone, but rather than finding them a new job, we turned them into soft, mushy pets, and beauty pagent contestants. I find that horrifying.
I guess I feel that, if you cannot handle a specific breed with its working drive/ability intact, you probably should just choose not to own one, or to select pets from the lower-drive, pet-quality end of the bell curve, not deliberately set out to dumb down the entire gene pool. Not that you were suggesting that, exactly, but it sounds like you'd started down that road, and to a large extent, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, offering up an opposing viewpoint.

To play the devil's advocate to the devil's advocate, should the great dane breed now just go extinct because to my knowledge no one really hunts wild boar anymore in the western world? That's the fate that most dogs would face if we were to just decide that they should always remain working dogs bred for their working drive rather than pet temperment, or else just not exist.
 
Personally, I find most of the "companion" breeds to be insufferable in temperment. [8D]

Baxter says he'll come take care of your coon problem-- he got the one that had been raiding our garbage last week. It went up a tree, but not high enough. He would LOVE to take on a boar. Right after he tries to catch those deer over there and warns the mailman not to come up the driveway. Then he 's going to take a long nap on his favorite couch. There are still lines of Danes around with watchdog instincts and prey drive and work ethic. Of course most folks have no business dealing with a peculiarly delicate giant guard dog who really wants to kill large prey animals.
 
I'm very against "dumbing down" breeds. People should carefully pick the breed of dog that fits into their lifestyle. If that means real Danes (the kind that can take out raccons and will guard your home from all comers)  must go extinct, so be it.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

To play the devil's advocate to the devil's advocate, should the great dane breed now just go extinct because to my knowledge no one really hunts wild boar anymore in the western world?

Honestly...yes, probably. As we've dumbed them down into pets, we've also exagerated their size, and introduced new health issues. They're now too fragile to really handle protection work. The breed could be saved, perhaps, by de-emphasizing size, and establishing a way they could work in today's world, but honestly, these days, it's getting harder and harder to find a Dane that's capable of doing a whole lot more than ensuring that his/her owner's sofa doesn't actually drift away. In reducing their prey drive, we've also, seemingly, bred out most of their brains.

Sequoyah says if you all are against the dumbing down of animals, how come you all don't own Aussies? [] 
Seriously, I can identify.  I am living with a stockdog and no stock!  Fortunately, I can provide other outlets for Sequoyah's working abilities, but many regular pet owners can't.  For them, she would be the nightmare dog.  For me, I'm in heaven.

Working dogs are NOT irrelevant. Just because the majority of folks live in urban areas now where you don't see the work being done, doesn't mean it does not exist. Dogs on cattle operations bring beef to YOUR table. Yes, coonhounds DO help ensure the health of both human and even the coonhound population in rural areas. I've known plenty of people who go on real hunts (not those silly staged AKC affairs). In areas that are populated enough to drive out large predators, humans are the only predator pressure operating on that highly adaptive beast, the coon.

The curators of working breeds do NOT need to "Come to terms" with "the fact that working breeds are largely irrelevant". People who want to keep these dogs as companions for whatever reason need to "Come to terms" with the FACT that they are bringing a working dog into their homes. If they cannot reconcile that dogs needs with their lifestyles, then they need to consider another breed of dog. There's a ton that are appropriate for suburban life - just check out the AKC website - hundreds of dog breeds that have been turned into fashion statements and "cute" or "handsome" companions. [sm=smack.gif]