question on "what else???" dog food

I had a friend who figured out that his breeding problems were traceable to the cheapo food he was feeding.  He switched to a higher quality food and his multiple females immediately cycled properly and he was subsequently able to produce several healthy litters after that.

I don't consider the dull, smelly, flabby look and feel of a dog on your typical grocery store feed (not talking about the higher end) to be healthy and it does make me wonder whether a dog on such feeds is really getting what it needs for optimum health over the long term.

I was talking with my MIL, and she remarked that she had been spending a lot of money at the vet lately.  She was discouraged because the pets she was taking, were not elderly.  One was a kitty with cancer, another kitty had diabetes, a dog has constant skin problems.  She said it seemed like her pets were getting "old" younger and worried about that.  I didn't know what to say - they buy the cheapest possible grocery store foods for their pets, but I can't prove that's their problem because of course that's what they've always done.  Pollution? Global warming?  Or declining standards at pet feed producers, more pressure from shareholders on the megacorps to produce more for less?

I've had similiar conversations with my vet and she believes a bit of the latter.  She also recommends that people at least not feed the "generics".  They have brochures for  Natura  foods in their office and no longer stock any feeds except the prescriptions for bland, RF, and a couple other special needs that need careful home maintanence.

Hmm.. as for malnutrition, had a boarding dog, a corgi mix on generic Albertson's grocery store food. The dog ate 8 CUPS a day and was nothing but skin and bones, poor thing.
 
My minpin breaks out in hives and loses coat if I feed him Purina dog chow (which only happened once and never again, poor guy).
 
I don't see with my dogs any malnutrition problems but I see other effects, like Wellness and Solid Gold caused alkaline urine pH and they developed UTIs. But then those are supposed to be 'holistic' foods.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that they actually are able to use more of the ingredients instead of pooping them and the ingredients are better quality.  Plus they are preserved naturally, instead of with possible cancer causing chemicals.

I don't think you would see a malnutrition problem if the food was "complete and balanced".  However, I think those grocergy store foods could potentially cause cancer from the chemical preservatives.   Also, the long term use of artificial colors and flavors and also just the general low quality of the ingredients may take it's toll after a lifetime on some dogs.  Or, possibly exacerbate disease caused by another factor. 

For example, I don't know of any dogs with malnutrition but on the chow board right now everyone is greiving the loss of one dog from cancer and two more are going thru treatments.  Two out of the three dogs are/were under 8 years-old.  And, all the dogs were eating low quality grocery store or low end pet store foods until recently. 

There is a study going on right now about chows and akitas and how they are prone to stomach cancer.  So, after reading about that I'm extremely cautious about what she gets.  If a treat or food has BHT/BHA, I don't buy it.  Not worth it possibly causing a problem someday.

Actually, I have met quite a few Rottweilers and few other large "mastif" like breeds (but mostly rottweilers) that have problems keeping weight on with low end foods, specifically Pedigree.

When I worked at a pet supplies store, I must have talked to at least 4 rottweiler owners and 1 mastif owner who were pretty desperate.  Their dogs had dry coats, lots of shedding, and skinny.  After talking to them, I found that they were feeding their dogs correctly, but all of them were feeding low end food and most of them were feeding Pedigree.  The first few rottweiler customers that came in with these problems I recommended Diamond Premium - which is high calorie and similar to Eukanuba, but cheaper,  with the reasoning that they wouldn't switch or couldn't afford high end. All of them came back with a couple weeks saying it didn't help.  I then thought that maybe these dogs needed something more than the basics.  So I recommened Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken.  It's loaded with calories and has all the bells and whistles (fruits vegitable and lactobilus acidophilus, which will help them absorb more nutrients).  Sure enough it worked, every time.  I saw one dog that went from almost emaciated (the owners rescued it, but couldn't get it to gain weight on Pedigree) to beautiful muscle mass.

Conclusion:  Pedigree is a "maintence" dog food.  It contains the bare minimum of nutrients for the average dog.  Some dogs aren't average and need more than the bare minimum.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

I had a friend who figured out that his breeding problems were traceable to the cheapo food he was feeding.  He switched to a higher quality food and his multiple females immediately cycled properly and he was subsequently able to produce several healthy litters after that.

Sorry, I don't know the name of the study, but there is a study that demonstrates this perfectly.  One line of beagles is being fed raw and high quality kibble.  Another line of beagles is being fed low end, high grain kibble.  After 4 generations the life span of the beagles being fed the high grain kibble is shortened by 3 years compared to the previous generations and the life span of the dogs being fed raw hand high quality kibble.  I'll have to ask what the name of this study was.

Why do they always do testing on poor beagles?

one slight comment..You mention these cancer causing agents in the food...of course these agents cause cancer but they have to be given in massive dosses over a period of time...I don;t think anyone can correlate a cancer condition caused by the ingredients, if they could have the gov. would ban them...I had  several cancer patients come in, several diabetic  patients etc etc...But I cannot say the foods cause them or prevented them...I just didn;t keep stats like that so iI can;t assume the causes... Oxygen can be a deadly poison..if you give a patient pure oxygen for a very short while they will stop breathing and die dead...
If purina has their test dogs on commercial food for 15 years, i would love to see the stats for cancer in the test subjects and cancer in dogs feed only the "good stuff."
but again if my clients wanted to feed commercials or exotics that was their privilage and i would not discourage them, I just thought it was a waste of money...but then it wasn,t  my money
 
 

several diabetic patients

Actually, some nutritionists theorize (and I say theorize because it's only proven in theory, not through studies) that high carb foods (foods with corn as the first ingredient) can cause diabetes in dogs.  (Carbs causing a drastic drop in insulin levels after eating)

ORIGINAL: dvet

one slight comment..You mention these cancer causing agents in the food...of course these agents cause cancer but they have to be given in massive dosses over a period of time...I don;t think anyone can correlate a cancer condition caused by the ingredients, if they could have the gov. would ban them...I had  several cancer patients come in, several diabetic  patients etc etc...But I cannot say the foods cause them or prevented them...I just didn;t keep stats like that so iI can;t assume the causes... Oxygen can be a deadly poison..if you give a patient pure oxygen for a very short while they will stop breathing and die dead...
If purina has their test dogs on commercial food for 15 years, i would love to see the stats for cancer in the test subjects and cancer in dogs feed only the "good stuff."
but again if my clients wanted to feed commercials or exotics that was their privilage and i would not discourage them, I just thought it was a waste of money...but then it wasn,t  my money

Just a thought--there are a number of things that have been found to cause cancer and ALL kinds of health issues in people that they still sell.  Why would pet food be any different?

And remember that Kibble and Bits and Beneful contain the ingredient "sugar."  It actually says "sugar" in the ingredient label.  Sugar causes diabetes - can't argue that.

My thinking on this has always been, if for some reason she really needed like say a prescription food that contained BHA or BHT then I'd probably weigh the pro's and con's and give it to her if her condition would worsen without it. 
 
But, why take a chance that she could develop something later on or something might be made worse just to give her a treat which is mostly where this stuff is. 
 
And, your right, it would have to be massive quanitities but if you think about a dog eating a kibble containing say BHT every day for years and also being fed cookies or treats with the same, that is a lot especially considering the weight of a dog even a big dog. 
 
Even now, if I see a cereal has it I skip it.  Do I think we are going to drop of cancer (God forbid) from it, no, but there's already enough chance of us getting it or some other disease without taking in something we really don't need that might also cause it or make a condition of another cause worse. 
 
Hopefully, that makes sense. 
 
As far as sugar causing diabetes, I thought I had read that's not really true.  Don't know or remember the specifics but maybe someone else has heard the same??

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I don't think you would see a malnutrition problem if the food was "complete and balanced".  However, I think those grocergy store foods could potentially cause cancer from the chemical preservatives.   Also, the long term use of artificial colors and flavors and also just the general low quality of the ingredients may take it's toll after a lifetime on some dogs.  Or, possibly exacerbate disease caused by another factor. 

For example, I don't know of any dogs with malnutrition but on the chow board right now everyone is greiving the loss of one dog from cancer and two more are going thru treatments.  Two out of the three dogs are/were under 8 years-old.  And, all the dogs were eating low quality grocery store or low end pet store foods until recently. 

There is a study going on right now about chows and akitas and how they are prone to stomach cancer.  So, after reading about that I'm extremely cautious about what she gets.  If a treat or food has BHT/BHA, I don't buy it.  Not worth it possibly causing a problem someday.

I have to think that it's not so much that cheap food is toxic and causes cancer as that it is inadequate, particularly as our domestic environments are increasingly toxic. I believe these dogs are aging prematurely on cheap food because their overall immune systems are not receiving support and yet they are bombarded by "threats" in the environment that a healthy dog would shrug off.

Anecdotal case in point. I have lived in the same apartment in Manhattan for many years  and had  six cats and  a dog. Long before I had the dog my cats always had fleas sometimes dangerously so. I fed them grocery store cat food (dry and wet); used flea collars and bombs to deflea our apartment, but the fleas returned year after year. Since the cats never went out and they never met a dog, I concluded I was "bringing the fleas in on my feet."

Now I have a dog and two cats. They eat a minimum of high quality kibble, some very good canned, and some raw. The dog of course goes out all the time and rolls around in the grass at the park. In the four years I've had this group not once single flea.

The cats have never had a thing to prevent fleas. I gave the dog bio-spot one year. He was ok with the first dose but after the second dose he jumped in the bathtub and stayed there for a couple of hours. Not good.

For the past three years we've not used flea prevention on any animal (the dog gets Interceptor) and so far so good.

I'm just saying, I think immune system health is hard to come by these days for pets and humans, and a "maintenance" diet, particularly one fed so often and exclusively as to bring on allergies, isn't helping.

Ron

Ethoxiquin is Banned in 6 countries,besides all the other health risks associated with it,this should be reason enough for people not to want to give it to their pets! BHT and BHA may be added to pet foods in 'minimal' and 'safe' amounts,but what about the pet who eats this stuff every single day,surely these chemicals would charge an assualt on the immune system leaving the pet open to disease....cancer being the biggen'

Alot of people that i work with own dogs,only a small handful feed their dogs naturally,.most feed supermarket garbage or science diet,iams etc.Well i can say hand on heart that the majority of the supermarket fed dogs are not 100% healthy specimens! I see them at least once a year at work picnics and other outings,there's usually one or two dogs less every year due to death from disease,although all the naturally fed dogs(6 of them[8|]) are still alive and kicking,and it's also clear as day which dogs are fed what [&:] This is proof enough for me that un natural chemical,by-product,grain based foods dont cut it if you want a dog in optimal health.Sure most of these dogs are surviving,but i would not say they are thriving and are all that they can be!

Just today I have a renewed caution of additives in foods... and it's not just dog foods. 
 
We've been having some behavoiral issues with our 2 yr old, tantrums, hitting, biting, hair pulling, just plain naughty behavior and he has been difficult to control the last few months.

We've bene in the process of moving these last few months and so too tired to cook. We ate out a TON. Usually at least once a day!  Of course he was 'naughty' often and I am left feeling like a bad mother by the end of the day.
 
It's been a week since we had any fast food and my son's behavior has been wonderful.  Still a few normal 2 yr old tears and run-ins with throwing and whatnot but he has been taking redirection well and has not been difficult for me at all.
Tonight decided to get Mc'D's for supper and within30 minutes of him eating it... WILD!  Out of control, hitting me and the dogs, screaming tantrums for no reason. A couple hours out now and he seems to be calming down.

So for the heck of it , I looked up the ingredients in chicken nuggets, fries and hi-c drink.  Tons of hidden MSG which causes hyperactivity and aggression, food dyes and preservaties. Red 40 in the drink.  Red 40 causes hyperactivity, tantrums, aggressiveness, etc. 
 
If you read the ingredient list, it's stuff I wouldn't even feed to my dogs, much less a child.
 
Fast food is the Beneful of human 'food!'
 
SO.... I think that food additives, poor quality ingredients and such can make or break any living individual- whether it is dog or human.

I now know I have to be just as vigilant about what goes into my human family's mouths as I am about my dogs... 
 
And people go to obedience class, desperate to solve behavior problems with their dogs. Ask them what they feed, bet it's low end colored, preserved foods