Natura uses feeding tests?

Now, I will wait for the obligatory post that tries to refute that by saying that only means that 6 out of 8 dogs didn't die while eating it for a while.

  

Are you a fisherman Ron? Because you certainly like setting out bait! [8|]

jessiesmom i mix different brands of food quite regularly and have never had a problem.I have never understood GDL reasoning posted above.How can mixing 2 balanced foods provide anything but a balanced end product??

I think what great dane lady is referring to is people combining foods and not paying attention to the feeding requirements for the products. e.g. Max usually gets 4 cups of Purina, so I'm going to give him 2 cups of Innova EVO and 2 cups of Dog Chow.

I don't know about these field trials--that is where privately owned dogs are used for the testing--mine, yours, the dog down the street.   Here is why.  At the FDA-Fort Dodge hearing Jan 31, 2005 to bring Proheart6 back to the market, the subject of field trial came up.  Fort Dodge started with 280 dogs in the field trial, but 12 either died or had to be put to sleep.  When the FDA questioned the deaths the reply was "Well, some died in hunting accidents, some ate (ate) antifreeze, some got run over and were killed."  The FDA panel was not happy with this answer and finally Fort Dodge did say that 2 were older and underweight and they  and a reaction and died, and one had to be put to sleep because he had a reaction to his first injection and never recovered.  Now that is three out of 280, which is a little over 1%. Yet they claim only something like .001 % have a reaction.    If their own field trials show that 3 out of 280 actually died because of the ProHeart6, how can they claim the .001%? 
 
Also, you would think when drugs are involved,  the dogs would have been more closely watched.  I can take any 280 dogs in this town and I doubt that in a couple of months of trial, more than one would be lost in a hunting accident and more than one would die from "eating" antifreeze--and i would venture even those numbers would be high.  So field trials don't mean much to me because things need to be monitored and not just by the company making the food. drug, whaever.

Janice,
 
I highly respect GDL's and Mordanna's knowledge in the field and appreciate your posting their views on mixing things up.
When I mix things up, it's in small amounts and not at every meal. Kind of like when people add some raw, fresh, or homecooked occasionally (which I also do). The majority of their diet is based on one food at a time (which supplies their nutrient requirements) and throw in a "bit" of other things here and there. Not enough (IMO) to throw off the nutritional balance.
 For example: My "little" dogs, love the EP Fish and when they are on EVO, I will (at times) add in a few kibbles of the fish.
 
Every thing in moderation.

Ron, it's ashamed that they had to betray you like that!!! They could at least say SOMETHING derogatory about Nutro

 
I know... what's the deal with all of this politeness and lack of rudity? Oh, for some gratuitous rudity. I told myself some time ago that I would get out of nutrition debates. First, I'm not an expert in nutrition. Second, no matter how much logic and science I use, there are simply some who will reject it. Third, defending what I feed seems futile, etc, against the debating tactics of some. But I can't help myself. Sometimes, you know a bad wreck is going to happen and you are equally driven to watch it. And I offer my opinion and limited experience especially as a non-expert, albeit one who reads and thinks too much.
 

I told myself some time ago that I would get out of nutrition debates. First, I'm not an expert in nutrition. Second, no matter how much logic and science I use, there are simply some who will reject it

 
I know what you mean; a lot of members didn't like it when I said this:
 
      " It takes more than good ingredients to make a good dog food; the right balance of nutrients is critical and companies like Purina have the knowledge to make a well balanced food with less expensive ingredients which is why dogs do well on thier foods. Adding some homecooked or raw meat to a food like Beneful is a very good idea but there's no need to be ashamed of feeding foods that others don't approve of if it's from a company like Purina which has decades of research behind its products."
 
 And this:
     " Most of us here are not experts on a dog's nutritional needs and do not really have the credentials to say," This or that food is garbage",  especially if the food is made by a company such as Purina that has many nutritionists and veterinarians to develop its foods. I don't like the ingredients in many of Purina's foods but I also know that they have spent decades researching and making pet food. Common sense dictates that the ingredients in Beneful are not nearly as good as ingredients in a food like Innova or Canidae but the fact is that a company like Purina has the ability to process cheaper ingredients in a way that they provide a dog with complete and balanced nutrition. "
 
 The fact is I wouldn't have made statements like that a month ago but by listening to members like Sandra, you, and abbysdad I have changed my views and it took guts for all of you to go against the majority of members and stand your ground, so you see, it is worthwhile for you to post on the nutrition threads.

I have never understood GDL reasoning posted above.How can mixing 2 balanced foods provide anything but a balanced end product??

 
 art of her reason is in my post above and there is more if you click the link. Mordanna also advises not to mix foods from different brands and she has the credentials to know what she's talking about:
 
              [linkhttp://www.betterdogcare.com/about.html]http://www.betterdogcare.com/about.html[/link]
At school in Germany she attended Biology and Chemistry classes for 8 and 6 consecutive years respectively and during her 2 1/2 year professional apprenticeship, nutrition/dietetics was part of her accompanying education and also part of the final exam by the state of Baden-Württemberg.
After completing coursework in Animal Nutrition, Animal/Pet Care, Animal Physiology and Diseases & Parasitology, Sabine earned her certification in Animal Care from the University of Guelph, home of the Ontario Veterinary College.
  
 
        

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning. First, it's almost always apparent to the naked eye when someone is feeding a food like Dog Chow or Pedigree. The dog's coat is dull, they shed a lot, lack energy, etc. Granted this isn't the case every single time, but it's a 99% kind of thing. These companies are not engineering the best food they can, they're engineering the best food they can while using what they're given by Nestlé for ingredients.

Second, this discounts the fact that there are varying degrees of quality in foods, even from the major manufacturers.

Finally, you make the point that Purina et al have decades of research behind their products. Well, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack both have over 30 years research behind their products. Fromm has been in the animal business in one form or the other for 102 years.

I'm not going to disagree that Purina has more money to be able to accomplish their goals, but more money doesn't always translate into a better product.

I cannot wait 'til I get my phD (5 more months--already finished my discertation) just so I can have some validation behind my claim....I am even considering writing a book with one of my nutrition professors. We'll see how that goes....

And also, if Mordanna has taken chemistry, she would know that mixing the two dog foods (regarding their mineral composition),  you cannot add more than what the single part provides! It's like saying if you have a cup of peas and carrots, you are getting twice the amount of vitamins than if you ate a cup of peas alone.  (I'm trying to find a good example)

I cannot wait 'til I get my phD [...]just so I can have some validation behind my claim

LOL papillion, a degree doesn't validate your science - good logic, good method, and good sense does, and you've certainly demonstrated that most of the time.  To me anyway.  BTW, are you at State?

I do think it's kind of common sensical that if two foods claim to be balanced and complete - then it would be like an equation.  It doesn't matter if I eat a meal in a bar and a glass of water, or eat half a meal in a bar and drink half a Carnation Instant Breakfast - both approaches will provide 100% RDA of macro and micronutrients according to current human nutrition theory.  I won't take in more calcium because the CIB uses milk while the meal in a bar uses calcium carbonate.  Now, bioavailability is an issue that is still up for debate, but that's not the question, right?

I still don't agree with this line of reasoning. First, it's almost always apparent to the naked eye when someone is feeding a food like Dog Chow or Pedigree. The dog's coat is dull, they shed a lot, lack energy, etc. Granted this isn't the case every single time, but it's a 99% kind of thing. These companies are not engineering the best food they can, they're engineering the best food they can while using what they're given by Nestlé for ingredients.

Second, this discounts the fact that there are varying degrees of quality in foods, even from the major manufacturers.

Finally, you make the point that Purina et al have decades of research behind their products. Well, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack both have over 30 years research behind their products. Fromm has been in the animal business in one form or the other for 102 years.

I'm not going to disagree that Purina has more money to be able to accomplish their goals, but more money doesn't always translate into a better product

 
 All good points schlep.

I cannot wait 'til I get my phD (5 more months--already finished my discertation)/quote]
 
 
Congratulations in advance; my daughter is majoring in biochemistry and will be a senior this fall; then comes graduate school. She wants to go into research so she will have to have a phD also, so a lot more years of study left.

BTW, are you at State?

Yes, I am (If you are referring to NCSU)

LOL papillion, a degree doesn't validate your science - good logic, good method, and good sense does, and you've certainly demonstrated that most of the time.

I appreciate it, and I tried to hide a hint of sarcasm in there (as in getting my degree will make me that much more knowledgable, etc) although after re-reading it I realize comedy certainly was not my major [8D]

Jessies_mom:

Congrats to your daughter!  Tell her the extra years of study will be worth it, so stick with it! [] Good luck to her also....biochem is a very good field to be in right now.

Finally, you make the point that Purina et al have decades of research behind their products. Well, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack both have over 30 years research behind their products. Fromm has been in the animal business in one form or the other for 102 years.

 

Finally, you make the point that Purina et al have decades of research behind their products. Well, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack both have over 30 years research behind their products. Fromm has been in the animal business in one form or the other for 102 years.

 
 
I always see Solid Gold represented as some sort of pinnacle of the pet food industry, to me they are questionable at best. The FDA, Dr. Wysong and others, have questioned there ethics and honesty.  The owner continually claims that the government has a vendetta against her and all holistic pet foods,  but they seem to be the only company that has had a problem.
 
Scroll down to the bottom of this link:
 
[linkhttp://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1370/is_n10_v24/ai_9246902]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1370/is_n10_v24/ai_9246902[/link]
 
From Dr. Wysong:
 
[linkhttp://www.wysong.net/controversies/solidgold.shtml]http://www.wysong.net/controversies/solidgold.shtml[/link]
 
 
From the FDA:
 
[linkhttp://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00064.html]http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00064.html[/link]
 
 
And from Petdiets.com, this is one of the few companies I have seen them have a problem with, I think it may have to do with there checkered past, they don't seem to have issues with others like Eagle or Natura. 





Question


I am concerned with the commercial pet food on the market today after hearing horror stories of how the food is made with diseased animal parts and rancid rendered fats, etc. I want to know your opinion on this and if you have ever heard of Solid Gold dog food? It is a human-grade food, but do you consider it to be complete and balanced? Thank you for your time.


Answer


Yes we have looked into Solid Gold Food, and no, this food is not a product or company we have recommended.
Sorry there is no legal term "human-grade" hence no one can be completely sure what he or she are talking about. The USDA divides food products into only 2 categories: "Fit" and "Unfit" for human consumption. If the company does not use these terms, then we cannot be sure they know what they are talking about.
There are many pet food products on the market that are safe, nutritionally balanced, reasonably priced, convenient "easy to obtain on a regular basis". In 15 yrs as an independent observer of the pet food industry, I have never come across a company that knowingly uses ingredients that would be harmful to pets. The pet food industry is just too competitive to take risks.
This information was taken from their web site on Jan 5th:
"All Solid Gold foods are complete and balanced according to AAFCO guidelines. Therefore, they do not need to be supplemented with anything. However, we do recommend supplementing any commercial pet food with a supplement like our Seameal. Seameal contains 60 trace minerals, 12 vitamins, 22 amino acids, digestive enzymes and flaxseed meal."
These two sentences are contradictory and for what reason? If complete and balance and no supplement is needed, then why supplement but unless to make another sale? In such mixed messages where marketing and sales are interwoven with nutrition and science is not helpful to clients or their pets. We prefer to recommend companies who have product lines, nutritional profiles and client education not only in sync but take priority over hard core selling.
Interestingly, small pet food companies trying to get a toehold in a very big, very competitve market promote most of the “horror” stories. No names or products are ever mentioned, so the larger companies have little or no legal recourse other than to re-educate the client.



Rebecca Remillard, Ph.D., D.V.M., DACVN
 

Interesting information on Solid Gold that I was previously unaware of. Since it seems to pertain more to their supplements than their food, it doesn't really bother me too much. Pretty much anyone I've talked to who's met Sissy says she's a flake, and this cements it a bit more. I would be interested to know if there have been any altercations within the past 15 years.

As far as the pinnacle of holistic foods, I would personally say Eagle Pack. They've got their own plant, have a large following, and manufacture foods to meet every budget. I know that we personally push EP quite a bit at events, because it's closer to what people are currently paying, is a quality food, and EP has great promotional programs.