Trying to pick a "good" dog food, any help?

Personally, I just feel more comfortable feeding a food that isn't based on grains. It just doesn't make sense to me to feed a carnivore that type of diet. I also stay away from foods that have artificial colors and preservatives. It seems like small amounts might not be harmful, but feeding them to a dog every day, for years will have SOME adverse effects.

Everyone here knows my dogs are on Purina, the old man on Dog Chow, the girls on Fit and Trim.  My dads English Setters and Pointers lived totally  on Purina Dog Chow.  During Hunting Season, they were not only  used by us, but also by my Dad's brothers and a couple of my cousins..  There were weeks where they were out 7 days a week, usually 4-5 hours a day, sometimes more.  Most l;ived to be 11 to 15 years old.  They were taken in for vax every year, for injuries that were more than we could handle, but never for wellness tests, dentals, etc.  Back then most country folks did even have that done for themselves, much less their dogs.
 
Our dogs were well muscles, could hunt all day long in briars, brambles, thick underbrush, etc.  They all had wonderful coats.  None ever had ear infections, etc.  Now i have to say that if they were not totally healthy, there was no way they could have hunted the way they did, lived as long as they did, and not ever be sick.  The only ones we had that ever got sick were two that came down with distemper, Daddy did take them to the vet, but we lost both.  One was my very first setter, Beauty and I lost her at 8 months. 
 
My own dogs are doing great.  KayCee was on Science Diet r/d to lose 15 pounds after her knee surgeries, she lost it and my vet said put her on the Purina Fit  & Trim.  She has kept the weight off.  Honey was starting to be a porker, so I put her on it, she lost a few pounds and is maintaining.    Buck had his geriatric physical two weeks ago.  He had two problems.  He had a kidney infection, his first ever, and his thyroid was borderline and his pills were increased from one twice a day to 1 1/2 twice a day.  Outside of that everything was great.  Remember, life expectancy for a golden retriever is 10 to 12 years and he is 11.  He has never been in due to being ill.  His low thyroid was caught during full blood panel before dental a year ago, and his kidney infection caught druing his blood work for his "old man physical."  He has been on Purina his entire life--excetp the one time I tried a better food and he threw it up each time.
 
It is funny because sometimes I read that Purina is "better today because they are trying to improve it" and then I read another post and they say it  use to be better than it is today.  I really do not know.  I just know it worked for our dogs as far back as i can remember and that is the mid 50's.
 
Ever hear the old saying, one man's junk is another man's treasure?  Well, in the cause of my dogs, what many feel is junk is treasure to them--it works for them and that is all that matters to me.  I do not defend Purina, Science Diet, Iams, Pedigree, etc.  I defend the fact that they do work as well for some dogs as any high priced food, or maybe even better.  

We received our dog from a friend who could no longer keep him and lived with a dsyfunctional family that was going to euthanize him. When we got him, a friend who had been to a seminar as part of his work at Petco had suggested Nutro. So, I switched him to Nutro Large Breed Puppy. The vet said I could feed him puppy formula until 2 years, which I did, then I switched him to Nutro Large Breed Adult Lamb & Rice. Even then, numbers of people commented on his shiny coat. And he has the energy to run like the wind and pull like a freight train, as is befitting his breed history. I used to go to a sled dog forum. Then I came here. Some people there and many people here were consistently calling it "mid-grade, grainy" and some have called it overpriced at approx 85 cents a pound. It's been viewed as just a hair better than Ol Roy. I would expect it to have some grain with Rice in the name. So, once I read a ingredient comparison between it and Innova and I liked to list of Innova, it looked good enough for me to eat. Mistake. So, I took Shadow off of what he was doing great on. Mistake.
 
For a couple of weeks, he ate Innova and had sneezing fits, 12 to 15 in a row, several times a day. I switched him back to Nutro and he's been fine ever since then. So, I started reading and found out that you can get nutrition from grains, especially cooked. I came quickly to the summation that feeding my dog is not about what I may like or not like about the food, it is about what he needs to eat to be healthy. That the Nutro I feed him is actually quite close to the nutrient profile of food eaten by his ancestors. It is a simple food that fits his metabolism, providing the right amount of nutrition for the amount of food that he is accustomed to eating. That I can adjust that up or down, as is the tradition of his breed, by adding bits of cooked meat, now and then.
 
And of course, I had a cat that lived 17 years on Purina DeliCat and then the last year on Purina NF.
 

if I remember correctly, and more often I do not but I don;t think dogs are classified as carnivores because they are equipted to digest vegetable material, ie in the wild eatinag the  stomach contents of there herbiverous   prey..I think--and i can be wriong' but it think they are classified as obligate omnivours...

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Some people, with a few books and a few websites, think they know more about nutrition than you do and that you know nothing about determining a dog's health because you don't go gonzo for raw or "holistics." "Designer Science" where you can pick the facts that fit your paradigm.

We don't usually get vets in the nutrition threads to respond to such allegations and I think most vets can't be bothered and don't want to be "browbeat" by someone who has no formal education.


 
Wow!  I teach rhetoric at a liberal arts college, and I tell my students that it is their RESPONSIBILITY to go out and read CREDIBLE sources before they make any consumer decision - including health care.  Why do you interpret this as undermining your education and experience?  I think that consumers should ask their health care practicioners and vets all the questions they care to.  Personally, if my vet got upset that I asked them to explain to me how their opinion jives with my own research, I would immediately end my relationship with that vet. 

again, I think what ever works for you pet you use..If you think veggies are better and it works for you then do it...but I would suggest an added multi vitamine daily...this goes for  raw diets and any home cooked diet that is not "fortified"  a strick one ingredient diet can lead to  vitamine or mineral defisiences...again whatever works for  you pet, keep doing it.
 
And  Dyan, It takes  a lot to get me upset or to move off this board...it more fun hanging in there than taking a hike
 
Oh one other thing...it is not necessarily the diet that causes bloat...often, like horses,it can be from rolling around after a meal, or  the stomach twisting because of an inherited malposition of other oergans...also a problem with the vagus nerves...it is still up in the air as for an exact cause ane effect...I used to tell clients with large chested dog to elivate the water and food dishes..sometimes helps sometimes doesn.t

Wow, Jen, maybe you could retract the claws?
 
The person you quoted is Ron.  He is a master electrician, not a vet and has never claimed to be anything BUT a master electrician.  He posted his OPINION based on his EXPERIENCE with HIS dog.
 
And, gosh, after 50 years in practice, dvet might have some wisdom to share that is worth our time to read without ripping him to shreds.
 
Dvet, here is my experience with the "lesser" foods.  When I first got the shepherds my vet suggested Purina Large Breed puppy.  Sheba did well on it, but Thor grew very quickly and with HUGE growth spurts.  Plus, it looked like I was running HORSES in my backyard from the size of the poop piles.  Fast forward to raising pups on Innova and homecooked...the pups exhibit a slow, steady growth with no spurts.
 
Much to my shame, I misjudged a new home and sent one of my pups off to live with people who cared more about expense than the pup.  They fed him
P[:'(]digree....one of the FEW foods on my do not feed list.  In two months time he went from a normal sized pup to a GIANT.  He returned HUGE, bloated from all the salt in the food and the fact that she limited his water since he "refused to housetrain".  Tyler developed pano, which according to my vet is in direct correlation to the crap food.
 
All I can offer to this discussion is the experiences I have had with the various foods, and that, I've done now.
 

Glenda, how right you are that everyone has different experinces and what works for one will totally fail for another.  Take peanut butter.  My boys loved it,  They (and Jerry) probably ate one million six hundred thousdand and four peanut butter/jelly, peanutbutter/banana sandwiches.  (I made all those sandwiches, love peanut butter on toast, but have never tasted a PB/jelly, PB/banana sandwich.   They never had one iota of problems with all that peanut butter.  Yet there are those that will will have severe reaction, some even die, if they eat one bit of PB or anything with peanuts or peanut oil in it.

We eat tons of shrimp, clams,  crabs etc and no problem.  Others have horrible reactions to any kind of shell critters, shrimp,  etc.   When I was a teen I had to watch the amount of chocolate I ate because my face would break out if I over did.  Today I can eat all tahe chocolate I want to and have no problem with my face, just my waist LOL.  Some kids can eat a little sugar and they are bouncing off the ceiling.  Others can eat a lot of sugar (my boys) and go take a nap. 

When I tried Buck on food I thought better than Purina it didn't work--he threw it up every time.  No more experimenting around for me so long as my dogs stay plenty healthy on purina.  In the future if I get a dog and purina does not do the job for him it is doing for my dogs today, you can bet your last dollar I will look until I find what works for him, be it week old road kill, Ol Roy, or TO..

I am not the same trusting, naive person I use to be.  I am skeptical of "studies" that  "prove" Brand X ( of anything) is better than Brand Y because Brand Y will come out with a study "proving" it is better than Brand X.  Expert A says Brand  1 is no good, it contains, etc, etc, etc, and that is bad.  Brand 2 studies show it is much better.  Then along comes Expert B and says "Expert A doesn't know what he is talking about.  Studies have proved that etc, etc, etc is needed  and Brand 2 does not conatin all these things.  Brand 1 is best".  Then along comes Expert C and says "They are both wrong.  You really need blah, blah blah   and Brands 1 and 2 do not contain them.  You should use Brand 3."

Okay, here are three experts and each has his/her own opinon.  I have read some of the studies and i do not like the wording like "indicates", "may", etc. 

Let me tell you about one study.  I just found this out recently when i read the entire transcript of the hearing held Jan. 31, 2005 to try to get Proheart6 back on the market.  Fort Dodge had been saying how their field trial (study) using 280 proved how safe PH6 was.  Well, at the hearing the panel asked about the 12 dogs of the 280 that either died or had to be put to sleep.  According to Fort Dodge "some were hit by cars, some lost in hunting accidents, some 'ate' antifreeze, various things.  Apparently the panel was not quite satisfied with that answer and finally FD did admit two had reactions and died (but they were older dogs) and one had a reaction  and couldn't recover (but he was an underwwight dog) and ended up being put to sleep.  So even at that, 3 of 280 died due to ProHeart6 and that is a little over 1%.  That does not sound like much, but that is a little over 1 dog out of every one hundred.  Consider how many dogs are on this board and think about one out of every 100 having a reaction and dying.........that is TOOOOOOO many. 

But the point is, the entire story was not told to begin with.  It was claimed to be safe and people like me were lulled into believing it was safe and it was not.  But "STUDIES SHOWED IT WAS SAFE."  This is just one reason why I no longer depend on studies, but on my own experience.  I think 99.9% of studies are done by the makers, manufactures, or people with interest in the products and are going to tweak the results in their favor, and this goes for not only dog food companies, but ALL companies.

To me,  people are about dog food/feeding style like they are about religion.  There are all kinds of religions and in most cases, each one thinks they are the best, the most correct, etc. and some even believe they are the ONLY right one.  I do not believe that any one is the ONLY right one and i do not believe any one dog food is the ONLY right one and the any style of feeding is the ONLY right one.  Gee, got long winded, didn't I.  Happens when you get old.

And  Dyan, It takes  a lot to get me upset or to move off this board...it more fun hanging in there than taking a hike  

Thank goodness!!!!!

Oh one other thing...it is not necessarily the diet that causes bloat.. 

Yes I am aware of that, thank you!  I honestly  believe stress plays a very very large part in bloat from all the reading about it that I did. And we do have elevated dishes for our Danes,,,the very first thing purchased after getting them.
 
I agree with Glenda 100%, DVET HAS to have wisdom to share with us after 50 years of practice. We might not all follow it, gee, I don't do what my own vet says some of the times...but we have to listen and we have to keep an open mind for the health of our pets and for oursleves.
 

I have to extend a thank you to dvet for being present and participating on this board!   I've been in a lot of good food/bad food discussions/debates and never once had a vet chime in.  Vets get called ignorant and there's rumor that science diet sends vets on fancy tropical vacations for selling their foods, etc.
 
To answer your question about commercial foods and people experiencing problems:
I have tried briefly Iams, Purina,Nutro,Bil-Jac (which I used to defend but no longer do after a recent disaster), Innova, Wellness, etc.
 
Most of the above foods resulted in farty dogs. Runny diarrhea, and in the case of Wellness, huge HUGE poops at least 3 times a day. Wellness elevated urine pH and 2 of my 3 dogs experienced UTIs.  Can I attribute it and totally blame the food?  Well, once they were off it and treated, it never reoccurred again.
Bil-Jac has been a recent disaster. I have always used it once in a while in my rotations. It had been a couple years though since I had fed it. Well not even a month into it, my minpin had dry coat, shedded profusely (rare for minpin, but it came out in clumps!) A bichon developed yeast infections in her feet and ears, another bichon had gallbladder attack/biliary duct disease happen. Both bichons vomited daily.
 
On many commercial foods, we experience doggy b.o., dry flakey skin, stinky ears, farts, poop plops, itching/foot chewing.
Purina- my minpin got hives after every meal, no matter if it was puppy chow or ONE.  Diarrhea with this food also.  Nutro- puking dogs.
 
There is always one that I return to and am vowing to stick with after the recent bil-jac disaster.  It's PetGuard.  How do I determine they are doing well? No dandruff, shiny/abundant coat, no b.o., healthy eyes/ears/teeth, no gas, small compact low-odor stools, good happy dog energy.
 
Hope this answers your question. I can definitely tell a difference in my dog when I switch food within a month.

What bothers me about vets on nutrition is that they expect too much trust. By that I mean they don't have the amount of knowledge, and current knowledge, that merits them a position as any kind of guru on the subject. Most of them simply go by two things, 1) incidental, anecdotal information based on their clients, and 2) what the Purina/Science Diet reps tell them once or twice a year when they stop in. I do not think their opinions should be discounted, because they absolutely have the right to an opinion the same as the rest of us, it just shouldn't be held in a high regard comparatively. The fact that almost all of them sell Purina Rx and Science Diet Rx formulas immediately discounts their opinion from my point of view, just like I expect people to be skeptical of me when I'm selling foods.

When I'm talking with people who are skeptical of the holistic/natural tags, I tell them two things. First and foremost, look at the packaging and image that these companies are trying to sell versus what's actually in the bag. Just as an example, Science Diet has a formula called "Nature's Best with Real Chicken." Chicken doesn't even appear in the list until the 7th ingredient, and it's not even chicken meal. Companies like Purina and Science Diet are showing images of plump chickens, whole vegetables, and brown rice in their marketing and on the packages. In reality, the ingredients are really chicken by-products and brewers rice. To me, this is deception in advertising, and clearly plays on people wanting the best for their pets. If by-products and leftover cereal grains are truly the best for my pet, then just come out and say it. The thing is that I know and they know that that isn't the case.

Second, you just have to go off of common sense and basic human nutrition. Talk to any nutritionist, and their advice to you on the most basic level will be to shop the outside of the store. Whole grain breads, vegetables, fruits, dairy, meats. Their reason for this is they state that the items in the middle are overly processed, and it causes many health problems in people. We're just now starting to see that with the obesity epidemic in the country as portions get bigger, but also as convenience is marketed over good eating. Doritos, hamburger helper, soda, cereals, fruit rolls, etc have overtaken traditional meals in the past 50 years, and we're starting to pay for it as a culture. There's no reason why this same issue does not apply to pet foods.

When you see a food that says things like "liver flavor" or "chicken flavor", you have to ask yourself why that is better than having the actual ingredient there in the first place. I know I'll see replies from people who are sympathetic with the large food companies about how they've done all this research and found that this is what most dogs will do the best on. My response is they never conducted that research. The research they conducted is what food can we make that comes the closest to giving a pet complete nutrition while falling in line the best with our vertical integration style of business.

I don't think Purina or any of them are big bad evil companies and that companies like Eagle Pack are there because they love my dog. I do, however, think that companies like Eagle Pack have to prove to me that their product is worth more than what I can get at Kroger, and that keeps them somewhat honest.

Being a vet student as of this coming fall, I just wanted to note something about nutrition education:

The ONLY kickback at our school is that students can get discounted Hill's products. That is it.

We take a minimum of four nutrition class, one per semester, focusing on general, clinical, and specialized nutrion (small animal, large animal, etc)

Most of the courses are taught by vets and what I have heard is the following. They are educated as to the "higher" brands and do not only talk about Purina, SD, etc.  They are not rabidly anti-raw, but instead stress that a very careful approach must be taken, and teach us how to educate owners on balancing a raw diet.

I worked at a rural clinic over the summer and they sold and provided SD. This was the vet's opinion, and you have to admit it makes sense:

"I recomend Science Diet, Nutro, etc to people because it is easy to get and is a medium grade food. Personally I would not feed it, BUT not all of the people who come in to the clinic care about nutrition, or have the inclination to seek out higher priced brands, despite all the recommending and pushing I could do. They don't want to drive that far, they don't want to order it off the internet, they don't want to pay that much, etc. If all I did was push the super-brands, they would probably ignore me. However, if I can at LEAST get them on a medium-grade food, as compared to foods like Ole Roy and Purina, the dog or cat will end up with a better life."

Just wanted to give a couple different perspectives - not all vets are totally nutritionally ignorant.

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency
Just wanted to give a couple different perspectives - not all vets are totally nutritionally ignorant.

I don't believe vets are nutritionally ignorant, I believe they're not nutrition experts. It would take a fairly insecure vet (or one that's also an animal nutritionist) to claim anything otherwise, imo.

No one in this forum, save a very few, is a nutritional expert either...so lets just all keep that in mind and play nice

there is no one, especially vets who are complete experts in canine nutrition, you can read all the journals, listen to all the sales reps, attend meetings every year, listen to clients stories...listen to holistic people, listen to raw diet people etc etc etc...everyone is an authority in their own little way...The whole point that is missed here is that every dog, cat, horse elephant etc etc have certain idicynratic differences..what works for one may not work for others..
 
no one is the complet aurhtority on each species... I have listened to nurtion "expert" from as far away as austria..what he says  will not be applicable  to every animal.... You go with what works best for your individual pet..
 
end of my discertations.