Chicken Bones

Thank you  Sandra,,,, I found this very very interesting because FIRST, I have a Dane,,,who is a breed subject to bloat. 
But also I have been giving Bubblegum chicken necks when I get them,,,but have to admit, as small as they are and as big as Bubby is, I break the necks in half and give her one half and then the other after she chews the first.  But I was just looking at how inexpensive chicken backs are at the grocery store,,,and wondering if I want to take a chance.   NOT!    So thank you, because like the girl in the article,,,when I give Bubby even the necks,,, I worry.   

That's an excellent post on how someone didn't have problems for quite some time. It only takes one time. I wouldn't risk it. To be fair, some of the x-rays and cases mentioned in the petcenter article on bone impaction are from dogs who escaped, hunted, killed, and ate something in the woods, rather than purposefully being fed bones. Even raw bones can splinter, though not as easily as cooked bones. To me, the best option for raw is to grind everything. But the main value of a bone for most owners is the dogs dentation. A way to keep the teeth clean. Also, it should be known that dogs have cracked teeth on bones. You can sit right there watching them carefully. And they can stil crack teeth and swallow a small shard before you can move. "But don't worry. These many dogs have done for this long with never any problems."
 
We each decide the risks we will take. In my job, I threaded line side wire from a new transformer through an energized 2,000 amp Main Switch Board. Without insulated gloves (hot gloves). I stick my hands into an energized 200 amp electrical panel all the time to make changes, add something, whatever. BTW, it takes 1/10 of 1 amp to kill a grown man at the right voltage. So, a 2,000 amp 277/480 volt MSB could kill me in less than a heartbeat. But I know the risks and the safety procedures I do use, sans gloves. Another person who would shudder at the thought of what I do for my job will feed raw meat and bones without any concern.
 
So, we're all different and ain't that grand?
 

It still amazes me that I've feed over ten thousand pounds of chicken bones - necks, legs, thighs, quarters, backs - and only had one problem - a case of choking (my Corgi mix doesn't know how to chew her food).  Not a single impaction, no ruptures, so E-coli or Salmonella.

It still amazes me that I've feed over ten thousand pounds of chicken bones - necks, legs, thighs, quarters, backs - and only had one problem

 
Thank goodness! BUT in that same token, we can compare that sentence to the millions of dogs that get fed Purina, Old Roy, etc, and live a long healthy life.    Whats meant to be will be!
 
Ron,,,BE CAREFUL!!!!!

That's really unfortunate, and I'm glad her Dane made it through.
 
I, personally don't think this is, per say, a bone issue but rather a breed issue. Danes are the number one breed prone to bloat, so I read. Also, from what I read, I believe kibble fed dogs are more at risk (but, obviously, raw fed aren't safe!).
 
Is an hour really that long in the stomach for a nearly hole thigh to site? (please note this is a serious question). My first though when I read about the completely undigested part was, well, it hasn't really been in there long, but I think more along the lines of humans.
 
I personally, don't worry when I give Maddi a chicken thigh because she is a really GOOD chewer and will crunch fragments even under and inch in length. I worried more when I gave her lamb shanks and marrow bones because she couldn't crunch them so easily. Lamb shanks used to also upset her tummy, the chicken doesn't.

In the spirit of my previous post, I applaud your results. As I've mentioned before, Shadow has picked something off of the street that I didn't even know was there and has chewed and swallowed it before I could switch scooper and leash to one hand in order to remove it. And he's just fine. So, I'm not going to worry too much. The JRT that is allowed to roam the streets got into my old trashcan and got a cooked chicken carcass and he's still roaming the streets.
 
Once or twice a year, I would go fishing. I would take one or two perch (about the size of a Crappie) and clean the meat off of the bones and feed it to my cat. It was the only wet food she would eat. Otherwise, she preferred DeliCat by Purina.
 
I also applaud the care with which you feed your dogs.

Danes ARE subject to bloat, as many others are. But without taking the time to go back to read it again, I thought the problem was that the chicken caused a blockage, and that is what in turn caused the bloat and torsion. What I got out of this more then the bloat part, was that the dog was a gulper,,and consequently the large piece of chicken caused the problem, something that could happen (probably often does happen) to any dog that is a gulper.   The fact that (if I remember correctly) this was a Dane board so she was also discussing what could/did happen and the consequences of bloat.

Yes, I understood that, I guess I misworded it. My point moreso was that no matter what you feed a dane, they still seem to be extremely at risk for bloat and I don't necessarily think that the chicken is anymore dangerous than any other food when it comes to bloat and deep-chested dogs.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you could pretty much substitute Eagle Pack or Innova for chicken bone and nobody would be worried about Eagl Pack or Innova being more dangerous because a dog bloated after eating it.
 
 
 
*Edited to sound less hostile : in the manner meant to sound.

The  lesson I got out of that post was that you can do something  that "could be dangerous" for years and years and never have any problems and you tend to let your guard down....and the  unexpected happens.  So you should never let your gaurd down, know what could happen and be ready in case it does.....and hope it doesn't
 
Good example---my next door neighbor, in her mid 40's , has wade fished since a little girl.  She has always known there is the chance of stepping on a stingray and getting nailed. A few years ago she let her guard down, quit doing the "stingray shuffle" (drag your feet instead of taking steps) and she stepped on one and it nailed her calf.  She is a 200 pound woman and that ray was so large (probably a cownose ray) that it actually threw her and she ended up sitting in the water.  Well, she was on crutches for over 3 months for her leg to heal.  Case of knowing the danger, but having never encountered it in ove30 years of wade fishing just let her guard down and it happened.

sadly Danes tend to bloat. I know a lot of people who have had danes bloat after eating meals of kibble. We should stop feeding kibble! or the one who bloated after not eating for 24 hours. We should never fast our dogs!
 
This is what is called a "case report". It is impossible to determine causation from a case report. See below for some REAL information on bloat. Feeding chicken legs is protective against bloat. So please don't risk your dogs health by over-reacting to a case report.
 




Vet Rec. 1998 Jul 11;143(2):48-50.
[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=9699253]Related Articles,[/link]







Links

Small size of food particles and age as risk factors for gastric dilatation volvulus in great danes.

[linkTheyse>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Theyse+LF%22%5BAuthor%5D]Theyse LF[/link], [linkvan>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22van+de+Brom+WE%22%5BAuthor%5D]van de Brom WE[/link], [linkvan>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22van+Sluijs+FJ%22%5BAuthor%5D]van Sluijs FJ[/link].

Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Utrecht, The Netherlands.

A case-control study was conducted to investigate whether age, gender, neuter status, type of food, feeding frequency, food intake time, interval between feeding and exercise, duration of exercise and overall physical activity were risk factors for gastric dilatation volvulus (GDV) in the great dane. The sample population consisted of 38 great danes with acute GDV (cases) and 71 great danes owned by members of the Dutch Great Dane Association (controls). Information on the risk factors was collected by using clinical data in combination with a questionnaire, and the data were analysed by backward stepwise conditional logistic regression analysis. Dogs fed a diet containing particles of food > 30 mm in size (kibble and/or dinner and/or home-prepared food with large pieces of meat) had a lower risk of GDV than dogs fed a diet containing only particles < 30 mm in size (kibble or dinner and/or canned meat and/or home-prepared food cut into small pieces or ground in a food processor). Increasing age was also a risk factor for GDV. Gender, neuter status, feeding frequency, food intake time, the interval between feeding and exercise, the duration of exercise, and overall physical activity were not identified as risk factors. Feeding a diet including large pieces of meat may help to reduce the inc



J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 1997 May-Jun;33(3):197-204.
[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=9138229]Related Articles,[/link]







Links

Multiple risk factors for the gastric dilatation-volvulus syndrome in dogs: a practitioner/owner case-control study.

[linkGlickman>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Glickman+LT%22%5BAuthor%5D]Glickman LT[/link], [linkGlickman>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Glickman+NW%22%5BAuthor%5D]Glickman NW[/link], [linkSchellenberg>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Schellenberg+DB%22%5BAuthor%5D]Schellenberg DB[/link], [linkSimpson>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Simpson+K%22%5BAuthor%5D]Simpson K[/link], [linkLantz>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Lantz+GC%22%5BAuthor%5D]Lantz GC[/link].

Department of Veterinary Pathobiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1243, USA.

A study was conducted of 101 dogs (i.e., case dogs) that had acute episodes of gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) and 101 dogs (i.e., control dogs) with nonGDV-related problems. The control dogs were matched individually to case dogs by breed or size, and age. Predisposing factors that significantly (p less than 0.10) increased a dog's risk of GDV were male gender, being underweight, eating one meal daily, eating rapidly, and a fearful temperament. Predisposing factors that decreased the risk of GDV significantly were a "happy" temperament and inclusion of table foods in a usual diet consisting primarily of dry dog food. The only factor that appeared to precipitate an acute episode of GDV was stress.

PMID: 9138229 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
idence of GDV in great danes.

PMID: 9699253 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
 
 

[font=verdana][size=2]The surgeon felt they had impacted in her stomach which did not allow accumulated "gas" (I put gas in quotation marks as I'm well aware that research has shown it is in fact plain old room air which is found in bloat patients) to escape, causing bloat, and finally gastric torsion.
 

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She said the skin was leathery and the meat still intact...that means that the dog swallowed a big piece whole and it caused blockage.  I think that is the big subject to this story.  It was meantioned several times about "wolfers".  It seems to me that she is thinking it wouldn't have happened to her other 3 danes who chew their food up.  So I don't take this conversation to be primarily about chicken bones or chicken OR Danes for that matter,, but rather about "wolfers" that "wolf" down a big piece whole, and it blocked air from being able to leave the body, thus causing bloat.  I personally think the lesson is if you have a gulper, if you have a wolfer,,, a dog that does not chew,,don't give him big pieces of chicken which probably could mean ANYTHING because it might cause blockage.

Excellent post. Again, we each have to judge our dogs case by case.

a "blockage" and bloat are completely different problems with different symptoms and outcomes. Bloat is a mysterious malfunction of the stomach that appears to be triggered by stress. The stomach swells up with gas. It is then prone to twisting (gastric torsion), which causes necrosis of the twisted tissues. Bloat happens fast. Any food the dog happened to have in the stomach certainly wouldn't be digested in any way.  Blockages don't involve the stomach, they involve the intestine. Most commonly seen in dogs that eat non-food items. Sometimes seen in dogs that eat cooked bones or greenies or rawhide.
A dog as large as a Dane is certainly capable of swallowing an entire chicken leg with no adverse effect. In a non-bloating stomach, the acid will dissolve the meat and turn the bones into rubber. The danger "gulpers" are in is due to choking and getting bones stuck in the throat. Once something makes into the stomach, dog is safe. If the dog can't dissolve it well he'll just puke it up later. I've seen my own dog swallow an entire rabbit, fur and all, and happily digest it.

a "blockage" and bloat are completely different problems with different symptoms and outcomes.

 
Did you honestly read the article? This was her vets opinion.
 
I know what dangers we expect from gulpers or wolfers but you HOPE that once it gets into the stomach everything is fine. But its not!  Many dogs die from a blockage from something that went into the stomach and they did NOT puke it out.
 
I don't know, I guess we have to take her vets word for what he thinks happened.