Blackwatch feed program

There is so much great information out there from people who have done decades of research but just dont have a dozen letters and numbers after their names

 
I agree with Edie on this. I think that the best information is experience.  THAT is why I like the dog forums also. 
For me having Great Danes...I believe that Linda Arndt  (The Great Dane Lady) started out on her website with her experience raising Danes..and that is why I like her so much. Perhaps if I had another breed I might not take what she says so seriously..but I believe because of her experiences with raising Danes and their health problems..she knows more about what I should be doing with my Danes more than most other places.  I do not follow her Blackwatch Program so I can't remark about it... but that program was ( I believe ) started when she was breeding dogs and this is what she recommended to her buyers.  I think since then she has expanded a lot into other breeds and humans.
 
I see why MissK gives her scientific data,,,it backs her beliefs and knowledge, something that most people require when arguing/discussing a point.
 
I personally can't believe for a second, that fiber in a dog diet  is not good..and beet pulp added for fiber is a good way to add it.
 

ORIGINAL: Edie  I've just been thinking.... Doesnt every living thing need fibre? I thought it was needed so we can go to the toilet.If dogs and us didnt have any fibre in our diets wouldnt we get all clogged up?

 
Are you under the impression what is good for me must be good for my dog?  Think outside the 'bag', we are not the same.  It is easy to think that though.  Isn't that what they want us to believe when you see these carrots and string beans, tomatoes, oats
depicted on the bag...look at all those ingredients good for me, must be then good for my dog?  My body needs some added fiber, my dog must therefore need added fiber? 

I don't see anything wrong with these ingredients;

     Duck Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Tomato Pomace, Carrots, Peas, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Quinoa (Organic), Inulin, Apples, Blueberries, Cranberries, Beta-Carotene, Dehydrated Kelp, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Polysaccharide Complexes of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger

 
three grains?  protein level only what, 23% or so? 
It doesn't have any bad ingredients, but it's basically a bag of rice that you're feeding your dog.
 
Fiber isn't BAD for dogs, but they don't need it to "poop" the way humans do. Humans are supposed to eat diets very high in vegetable matter. Dogs are supposed to eat rabbits. Not much fiber in a rabbit. So their gut doesn't need fiber to stimulate it to work. Adding things like beet pulp and pumpkin to the diet artifically firms the stool up. Hides the fact the dog has pudding stool.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

It doesn't have any bad ingredients, but it's basically a bag of rice that you're feeding your dog.

Eagle Pack says their duck formula is 40% duck meal. Not exactly a bag of rice.

It's impossible to tell the formulation of a food by looking at the ingredient list. The only thing we can know from it is that the first ingredient is heaviest by weight and the last ingredient is lightest.

Eagle Pack says their duck formula is 40% duck meal. Not exactly a bag of rice.

 
   Exactly; a good portion of the protein comes from meat. You can find dog foods with slightly higher protein (24 to 26%), but more of the protein comes from grains. The beet pulp's not an issue one way or the other to me; I rotate in California Natural, which does not have a fiber source, and her stools are fine.

You seem to rely heavily on this pubmed site,just as Charlie seems to rely on the abady site,i've been there once(pubmed) and couldnt find any info on animals,but maybe i didnt search hard enough..

 
  Edie, I have found a lot of information on PubMed concerning dogs and different studies, such as allergen immunotherapy, food allergies, etc.

 I also wanted to add about EP Duck, I recently recommended my friend to switch her Min. Snauzer(sp?) to EP. He was on Science Diet. He has been on the EP for 2 months now, and she could not thank me enough for making the switch. Even her vet asked what food is he on now, he is doing so much better,  she said before his ads were enlarged. Any way, EP does seem to be a very good food for many dogs, I also go by results more than ingredients, even though I think the ingredients in their foods are very good. Not every food is going to wrok for every dog, why I have at least 3 differant foods at one time in my house. 
 
Some of my initial questions have been answered about adding all the extra supplements. Most of them robably would be of no benefit to them. My one Pug that does have a sensitive stomach at times might benefit from the probiotics, but since it appears Nature's Logic already has so many probiotics, I might try this food with him and see how he does. He is fine most of the time, maybe once every couple months he gets a flare up, but has been doing much better since on EP Duck. He did well on Pinnacle, but stopped liking it, go figure.  

   Beth; I don't think the barley grass was discussed, but I think the purpose of adding it is to replace phytonutrients dogs may be missing from eating only processed food. Whether that's  true or not, I do like you and add some fresh foods to Jessie's kibble daily. Some days she gets some Nature's variety medallions, and other days she gets a cooked  mixture made according to Monica Segal's proportions in one of her booklets. As far as probiotics go, I add some yogurt or an acidophilus pearl a few times a week.

ORIGINAL: cc431

ORIGINAL: Edie  I've just been thinking.... Doesnt every living thing need fibre? I thought it was needed so we can go to the toilet.If dogs and us didnt have any fibre in our diets wouldnt we get all clogged up?

Are you under the impression what is good for me must be good for my dog?  Think outside the 'bag', we are not the same.  It is easy to think that though.  Isn't that what they want us to believe when you see these carrots and string beans, tomatoes, oats
depicted on the bag...look at all those ingredients good for me, must be then good for my dog?  My body needs some added fiber, my dog must therefore need added fiber? 

My dogs also think they need fiber. They would rather eat grass at the dog park than play ball most days...

Why do you think fiber is BAD for dogs?? Just because they don't need much (I think one of those studies said 7% is considered the MAX for dogs unless they have a disease that requires more fiber) doesn't mean that a little isn't harmful. I don't know how many countries regularly consume cranberries, but those have healthy properties... why can't it be the same for dogs? While working with nature (ie fresh whole ingredients whenever possible) is a good thing, nature is NOT ideal, and therefore can be improved upon... I really do think there is some middle ground here...

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67  My dogs also think they need fiber. They would rather eat grass at the dog park than play ball most days...

Why do you think fiber is BAD for dogs?? Just because they don't need much (I think one of those studies said 7% is considered the MAX for dogs unless they have a disease that requires more fiber) doesn't mean that a little isn't harmful. I don't know how many countries regularly consume cranberries, but those have healthy properties... why can't it be the same for dogs? While working with nature (ie fresh whole ingredients whenever possible) is a good thing, nature is NOT ideal, and therefore can be improved upon... I really do think there is some middle ground here...

 
My dog will nip at the top of grass on occasion when taking a blast in a field, but never seen her stop to eat grass.  She does it more in a playful manner or something else?  Maybe she has some scent off another animal and it#%92s a way of saying ‘gotcha#%92 in the dog world, take a memento of the occasion; territorial?
 
Bad, well I#%92ll just say I think less is best when it comes to fiber.  Been there done that when it comes to beet pulp.  I am NOT an advocate of the total grain free diets.
As the pub-meds you posted indicated there is a noted increase in glucose, and that can be a good thing, especially in regards to helping pregnant/lactating bitches regulating their sugar/glucose.   I know this because I read it off Abady website.  So total grain free is maybe not be as desirable as one would think.   I feel certain fibers are more desirable than others.  The problem is a numbers game on the side of the bag with the percentages when it comes to certain fibers.  Dry fiber content is one thing, hydrated is whole new ball game.  When fibers like beet pulp come into play what counts is what#%92s in the stomach, not in the bag.  Beet pulp can expand up to 250%.  Innocent numbers like 4-5% translate easily into 40-50% plus in the ration of serving (wet).
 
That 28% “growth” we discussed of the sm. intestine…phew, I don#%92t know; that#%92s not sitting well with me at all.  Seems synonymous with stretch, expand, grow, enlarge, etc.   I understand what the premise is, more area more absorption and whatnot, but doesn#%92t seem right to me.  Shouldn#%92t growth be steady and sure throughout the body and not just in one spot?  Does it grow and stay that way or is it constantly shrinking and expanding with every meal?  Well, like I said prior, some feel there is some potential danger there, and do not advocate the fibers that expand.  There are a bunch of them, another common one being tomato pomace, a cheap leftover from the canning industry.   Sorry if that offends but it#%92s true.  I think it used to cost $30 for two tons, but today is probably 60 (gas prices).

Misskiwi Not every bit of info needs to be backed up by 100% hardcore science,i listen to both anecdotal and scientific information.To me it matters not a hoot who the author of something is,if they make sense and dont make outlandish,propagandarish claims then who am i to knock it?.You seem to rely heavily on this pubmed site,just as Charlie seems to rely on the abady site,i've been there once(pubmed) and couldnt find any info on animals,but maybe i didnt search hard enough..

Pubmed isn't just a website and it isn't even in the same galaxy as the Abady stuff. Pubmed is a electronic library of every study, case report, comment on, etc. that has ever been published in pretty much every peer reviewed journal around the world in medicine, psycholocy, vet medicine, all sorts of basic science. It is the history of scientific progress in one place. Lots of things that "made sense" or theories that like "common sense" have been proven to be untrue, and you can find the evidence on pubmed. If you didn't find anything on animals then you either didn't look or don't know how to use it. Relying on a page by Abady over millions of studies published in peer reviewed journals is just silly IMO. It has nothing to do with letters after anyone's name, and the people who tend to say that are the ones who don't have any and are trying to sell something or make themselves feel better. The people who publish on pubmed not only have the years of experience that you speak of, but they work to prove their theories. It's like anything in science, those who don't try to prove/disprove what they believe do so because they don't want to find an answer which is contrary to their belief (the proton accelerator is a great example).

ORIGINAL: ottoluv  Pubmed isn't just a website and it isn't even in the same galaxy as the Abady stuff. Pubmed is a electronic library of every study, case report, comment on, etc. that has ever been published in pretty much every peer reviewed journal around the world in medicine, psycholocy, vet medicine, all sorts of basic science. It is the history of scientific progress in one place. Lots of things that "made sense" or theories that like "common sense" have been proven to be untrue, and you can find the evidence on pubmed. If you didn't find anything on animals then you either didn't look or don't know how to use it. Relying on a page by Abady over millions of studies published in peer reviewed journals is just silly IMO. It has nothing to do with letters after anyone's name, and the people who tend to say that are the ones who don't have any and are trying to sell something or make themselves feel better. The people who publish on pubmed not only have the years of experience that you speak of, but they work to prove their theories. It's like anything in science, those who don't try to prove/disprove what they believe do so because they don't want to find an answer which is contrary to their belief (the proton accelerator is a great example).

 
So, with all this information circultating around how do we choose a food?   "By its record"

You are missing the point charlie, it is not how you choose food. The point is, that I wouldn't follow the advice of someone who states things that are contrary to scientific fact. I also wouldn't use the products of someone who states things that are contrary to scientific fact.

ORIGINAL: ottoluv  You are missing the point charlie, it is not how you choose food. The point is, that I wouldn't follow the advice of someone who states things that are contrary to scientific fact. I also wouldn't use the products of someone who states things that are contrary to scientific fact.

I think the point is more about perspective, and how you view things.  You mention scientific fact?  IMO/perspective the scientific fact is a dog is a carnivore and should be fed accordingly.  The 'industry' as a whole feeds pets as if they were omnivores or herbivores (and you can judge for yourself by looking at ingredients of the industry').  I choose not to be institutionalized into profit driven large company way of thinking.  I say no to string beans...I say no to yucca...no to cranberries...no beet pulp...no potatoes...no roots...no carrots...etc., give me the meat and the fat, and the by-Products, and bring on the fish and poultry, fish fat, LARD, etc. I say no to gluten protein and yes for animal source proteins.  Is it wrong for me to think like that?  I want to feed my dog better than 'industry' standards, that is my science.

The scientific studies that Misskiwi is referring to only conclude that dogs need high fiber when fed the commercial diets fed in the study.  There are no studies that have been conducted to show that dogs have a biological need for fiber.

Most dogs fed natural type meat and bone, zero fiber diets will have nice, firm poops, . But most dogs, mine included, need fiber in order to handle kibble and canned processed diets to avoid having pudding poops.  That does not mean that dogs need fiber in general.