Blackwatch feed program

ORIGINAL: cc431

When I hear things like clinical reports, pub-meds, etc., first thing I think of is 'follow the money'.  Who's putting up the cash?  Where is the grant money coming from?  The reports will always be favorable to Mr Iams or Mr. Purina so long as they're bankrolling the studies.   I'll put more faith in the independent studies and research as opposed to skewed analysis to meet ones agenda or criteria. 

Good point.

as to the oxy-drops, well, it looks like it's basically just bleach. Yeah, oxidative bleach. clorite. I wouldn't feed that to my dog. Although the amount they suggesting feeding is so minimal it probably won't hurt your dog, or do anything.  Might be good for their topical uses, but hey, there are cheaper solutions.

Nzymes hard to comment since they don't tell you what it is (a good reason to not feed it), but it looks like it's just bean sprouts. 

The only reason they have to add "beet pulp" to dog foods is all that grain and filler they put in the foods would result in chronic diarrhea unless they put something in there to artificially firm up the stool. I have dogs on zero-fiber diets and they don't fart all the time (a miracle with Danes) and have lovely hard small stools.

 
I guess "more power to ya!"  I have a Dane that doesn't fart at all,,,,,only time she ever does/did is when I give her raw bones or raw meat. She eats EP and gets probiotics.  Ollie, my sons Dane also eats Eagle Pack...gets probiotics also,,,and no longer has the food allergies that he once had. Couldn't possible think of changing either of them to another food.
 
As far as the Oxy Drops.... we tried them when Ollie had allegies...didn't help. BUT we have a friend who's mother has been taking another brand of something just like Oxy Drops for years and years since she was a young girl...and swears by it.
Nymes website tells what it is:





INGREDIENTS:
Nzymes Proprietary blend of [linkhttp://www.nzymes.com/Articles/soy-nutrition-profile.htm]Sprouted Soy Protein[/link]. Ingredients are human-grade.
Hypoallergenic - Non-irradiated.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

CRUDE PROTEIN NOT LESS THAN
[align=right]48%

CRUDE FAT NOT LESS THAN
[align=right]1%

CRUDE FIBER NOT MORE THAN
[align=right]3%

MOISTURE NOT MORE THAN
[align=right]12%

CALCIUM (Ca) NOT LESS THAN
[align=right].02%

Oxy drops are soy protein?? Isn't soy one of those ingredients to avoid like the plague?

If fiber is so detrimental, why is canned pumpkin recommended almost as commonly as yogurt for helping to resolve minor GI upsets?

Here's your "show me the money" Performed by the University of Mississippi, NOT any food company.

1: Am J Vet Res. 1999 Mar;60(3):354-8.LinksInfluence of fermentable fiber on small intestinal dimensions and transport of glucose and proline in dogs.[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Buddington%20RK%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Buddington RK[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Buddington%20KK%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Buddington KK[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Sunvold%20GD%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Sunvold GD[/link].Department of Biological Sciences, Mississippi State University, Mississippi State 39762, USA.OBJECTIVE: To determine whether intestinal dimensions and nutrient absorption are influenced by different types of dietary fiber. ANIMALS: 10 adult Beagles of both sexes. PROCEDURE: Dogs were randomly assigned to 2 groups and fed a diet with fermentable fibers (beet pulp and oligofructose) or a nonfermentable fiber (cellulose) for 6 weeks. Effects of the diets on small intestinal dimensions were measured, and transport rates for glucose and proline were determined. Kinetics of glucose and proline uptake were defined in the proximal and middle regions of the small intestine, respectively. RESULTS: Small intestines of dogs fed fermentable fiber had 28% more nominal surface area and 37% more mucosal mass, were 35% heavier, and had 95% higher capacity for carrier-mediated glucose uptake than those of dogs fed a diet with cellulose. Differences were more pronounced in the proximal portion of the intestine. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Diets containing fermentable fibers increase small intestinal dimensions and the capacity for nutrient absorption in dogs. These changes may reduce the risk of enteric infections or aid in treatment of intestinal diseases, particularly those involving reduced nutrient absorption.

And the University of Illinois:

J Anim Sci. 1996 Jul;74(7):1641-8. LinksNutrient digestion by ileal cannulated dogs as affected by dietary fibers with various fermentation characteristics.[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Muir%20HE%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Muir HE[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Murray%20SM%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Murray SM[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Fahey%20GC%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Fahey GC[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Merchen%20NR%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Merchen NR[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Reinhart%20GA%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Reinhart GA[/link].Division of Nutritional Sciences, University of Illinois, Urbana 61801, USA.We studied the effects of dietary fibers with various fermentation characteristics on nutrient digestion at the distal ileum and in the total tract of dogs. The following high-protein (34%), high-fat (23%) diets were fed: 1) a control treatment (CON) with 0% supplemental fiber; 2) beet pulp (BP), 7.5%; 3) low-cellulose mixture (LCM), 2.5% cellulose + 5.0% pectin; 4) high-cellulose mixture (HCM), 5.0% cellulose + 2.5% pectin; or 5) Solka Floc (SF), 7.5% cellulose. Nutrient intakes by fiber-supplemented dogs were similar among treatment groups but greater (P < .05) than for dogs fed the control diet. Digestion of nutrients at the distal ileum was similar among groups except for fat: the dogs fed BP digested less fat than those fed the other sources of dietary fiber. Digestion of amino acids at the distal ileum was similar for all groups, except for lysine, which increased (P < .05) in digestibility as dietary cellulose concentration increased. Dogs consuming LCM had lower apparent ileal digestibility values for all nutrients, including most amino acids, than dogs consuming HCM or SF. Total tract digestion of DM and OM by dogs fed supplemental fiber was less (P < .05) than for dogs fed the control diet. The BP treatment was higher than other fiber treatments in total tract digestion of OM (P < .10) and total dietary fiber (P < .05). Total tract digestibilities of all nutrients exhibited either linear or quadratic responses to dietary cellulose concentrations. Apparent ileal and total tract nutrient digestion was influenced by the source of dietary fiber consumed.

Oxy drops are soy protein?? Isn't soy one of those ingredients to avoid like the plague?

 
   No; Nzymes are a blend of sprouted soy protein.

I don't like eaglepack ingredients or food profiles and have trouble understanding why it's considered to be a super premium food. The company has great quality control, but there isn't a single one of their foods I would ever consider feeding.

 
   I don't see anything wrong with these ingredients;
 
     Duck Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Tomato Pomace, Carrots, Peas, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Quinoa (Organic), Inulin, Apples, Blueberries, Cranberries, Beta-Carotene, Dehydrated Kelp, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Polysaccharide Complexes of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger
 
   It's EP Duck and Jessie's on it right now. I rotate in Nature's Variety but she gets one of the EP Holistic foods most of the time; she does great on them.  I think ingredients are very important, but results should be the first consideration in what a dog is fed.

Since our food got recalled I've tried 8 different foods (on various dogs) - Eagle Pack gave the best results and is definitely one we'll be sticking with, probably in rotation with Canidae Lamb & Rice.

It's EP Duck and Jessie's on it right now. I rotate in Nature's Variety but she gets one of the EP Holistic foods most of the time; she does great on them. I think ingredients are very important, but results should be the first consideration in what a dog is fed.

 
I agree, it is a very good food. One of my Pugs is on the Duck, has been one the best foods he has been on. My Pugs all do wonderful when on EP foods, and will probably continue to keep it in rotation. 

After reading all the testimonials lately of EP,i decided to buy a bag of the holistic chicken.Well,they picked at it and even left some in their bowl [sm=eek.gif] I fed it for two days and stopped on the third as my girl started itching and biting at herself [&:]

So for my guys,EP didnt work..

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67  If fiber is so detrimental, why is canned pumpkin recommended almost as commonly as yogurt for helping to resolve minor GI upsets?

 
I can't answer your question.  I never have had a need for canned pumpkin.  My dogs never suffer from minor GI upsets.

Here's your "show me the money" Performed by the University of Mississippi, NOT any food company. ...

 
I said 'follow the money'.  I fed beet pulp diets for a long time.  I wouldn't recommend it as a desirebale ingredient in dog food although very common.  One of those pub med reports noted increased size of the the small intestine by 28%. 
 

 Small intestines of dogs fed fermentable fiber had 28% more nominal surface area ... 

 
I'm sorry, but I don't care for anything that is going stretch my dogs small intestine by 28%.  How do we know that stretching out by 28% is actually doing more harm than good, maybe more so for certain size breeds?  Maybe things start becoming loose in there, not as stable, more tendency to flip flop around?
 
If you care to diversify your knowledge and be open toward alternative approaches (some call it holistic), you should take the time to read the article "how to choose your dogs food" found at Abady website.  It is a lengthly article, yet if you make it to somewhere in the middle it address some issues with fiber and discusses the impact fiber has on absorption.  I think it is a good article.  It is very critical of the industry in general, very critical of the WDJ and not afraid to take them when it comes to health and welfare of our pets. 



 

ORIGINAL: cc431
I'm sorry, but I don't care for anything that is going stretch my dogs small intestine by 28%.  How do we know that stretching out by 28% is actually doing more harm than good, maybe more so for certain size breeds?  Maybe things start becoming loose in there, not as stable, more tendency to flip flop around?

Stretch?? It doesn't stretch, it GROWS! There is increased microvilli and brush border, meaning increased surface area for absorption. In other words, its making the intestine HEALTHIER and increases overall function!

Fermentable dietary fiber increases GLP-1 secretion and improves glucose homeostasis despite increased intestinal glucose transport capacity in healthy dogs.[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Massimino%20SP%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Massimino SP[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22McBurney%20MI%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]McBurney MI[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Field%20CJ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Field CJ[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Thomson%20AB%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Thomson AB[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Keelan%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Keelan M[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Hayek%20MG%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Hayek MG[/link], [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Sunvold%20GD%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus]Sunvold GD[/link].Nutrition & Metabolism Research Group, Food and Nutritional Science.Ileal proglucagon gene expression and postprandial plasma concentrations of proglucagon-derived peptides are reported to change with the type and quantity of dietary fiber ingested by rats. Within the intestine, proglucagon encodes several proglucagon-derived peptides known to modulate intestinal absorption capacity and pancreatic insulin secretion. To determine whether the chronic ingestion of fermentable dietary fiber regulates the expression and synthesis of proglucagon-derived peptides in the distal intestine to modulate glucose homeostasis, the following study was conducted: 16 adult dogs (23 +/- 2 kg) were fed isoenergetic, isonitrogenous diets containing a mixture of high fermentable dietary fibers (HFF) or low fermentable (LFF) wood cellulose for 14 d in a randomized cross-over design. Food was withheld for 16 h before an oral glucose tolerance test was conducted supplying 2 g of glucose/kg body wt, and peripheral blood was collected via a hind-leg catheter at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 90 and 120 min for plasma glucose, insulin and glucagon-like peptide-1(7-36)NH2 (GLP-1) analyses. Intestinal samples were collected after the second dietary treatment. Ileal proglucagon mRNA, intestinal (GLP-1) concentrations and the integrated area under the curves (AUC) for plasma GLP-1 and insulin were greater and plasma glucose AUC was reduced when dogs were fed the HFF diet compared to the LFF diet (P < 0.05). Intestinal villi heights, brush border and basolateral glucose transporter protein abundance and jejunal transport capacities were significantly greater when dogs were fed the HFF diet than when fed the LFF diet. In conclusion, improvements in glucose homeostasis are observed in healthy dogs when they ingest fermentable fibers.

Oi! Charlie and Misskiwi,you both make sense [sm=happy.gif]

If i may offer just wee bit of advice to you both,which you can choose to take or leave? []

Charlie you need to loosen the vice Abady has on you,maybe uncast the spell he seems to put on some people.Step outside the "abady box" and look at other avenues of literature,widen your horizons a bit []

Misskiwi [] Not every bit of info needs to be backed up by 100% hardcore science,i listen to both anecdotal and scientific information.To me it matters not a hoot who the author of something is,if they make sense and dont make outlandish,propagandarish claims then who am i to knock it?.You seem to rely heavily on this pubmed site,just as Charlie seems to rely on the abady site,i've been there once(pubmed) and couldnt find any info on animals,but maybe i didnt search hard enough..

I belong to another site where the members demand every piece of nutritional information has to come from a scientific source,mind you most of them feed crap like pedigree etc etc,and it drives me nuts!!!Lilians site(dogfoodproject) is poo pooed for this reason,as is volhards et al. There is so much great information out there from people who have done decades of research but just dont have a dozen letters and numbers after their names.Lets all step out of the box and give all avenues of information a go [sm=happy.gif]

[sm=2cents.gif]

MK, please don't stop posting the science stuff. I don't agree 100% with every point you make therewith [], but scientific data still needs to be on the table.

My question would be, is HFF the only means to a similiarly healthy gi tract?

I don't think fiber is a good thing for dogs

I've just been thinking.... Doesnt every living thing need fibre? I thought it was needed so we can go to the toilet.If dogs and us didnt have any fibre in our diets wouldnt we get all clogged up?

Just another friendly reminder.........still seeing some snarkiness and snide comments and I'd prefer not to see any of those.  You can debate and discuss without them.