Blackwatch feed program

ORIGINAL: dyan

I use probiotics every day for Bubblegum. Not to cover anything up, or not because of anything wrong that I want them to fix...but rather to prevent problems. For one, I am hoping that probiotics help to keep her from bloating. IF she never bloats,,,will I know that it is because I gave them to her? No,,,I won't know...but why take a chance? I up them when she is under stress and when she eats certain things such as raw meat and toxins such as Heartworm Prevention.

I worded that a little wrong. I see nothing wrong with giving probiotics daily (enzymes are a different story) if they are on a preventive basis. It's when they're suggested for every little thing and then given long term to help that thing (usually a food intolerance) that I have a problem with it. I also have a problem with giving probiotics from day one with something new, because you may not know if there is a problem. Better for the dog IMO, to just find a food that works for them. Now food switches, illness and stress are a different story and probiotics and enzymes can be helpful short term with these things.

I use probiotics every day for Bubblegum

 
   I give Jessie an acidophilus pearl daily to ensure her gut bacteria are healthy. Her immune system is always under stress from her allergies and it's something that can be helpful. Human studies show that as we age, our supply of dietary enzymes decreases, and an 80 year old person may not digest food as efficiently as someone who is younger, so I think enzymes are a good idea for older dogs, but that's JMO.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

I personally think enzymes are a joke for a healthy dog with a functional pancreas...
And who here would give an antifungal/antibacterial prescribed by a vet for the lifetime of their pet??? Then why use the pH drop things?

There is also no listing of ingredients, and whenever one product is a "magical" cure for multiple diseases, I really think its time to run the other way because you're getting propaganda'd right out of your cash...

I really can't believe that someone who is so seemingly knowledgable would continue to support such obviously (to me) info-mercial type products.

You would assume then a a healthy pancreas produces enough enzymes to break down today's commercial kibbles?

The are many arguments that the canine digestive system is designed for raw foods which inherently contain digestive enzymes and the diet itself has little starch making large amounts of enzymes unnecessary. As a result the canine pancreas doesn't produce these enzymes in high amounts. Commercial kibble contains very little of these enzymes, only if they spray it on after extruding, and it tends to be higher in starch. Even if you argue that the domesticated dog is far enough evolved that they have developed the capacity to produce more enzymes, it certainly doesn't hurt (other than the pocketbook) to add more to the diet. The pancreas produces these enzymes as a part of digestion, not in response to the level of enzymes present, so supplementation will not cause production to stop. Generally the amount of enzymes in these supplements is no more than what you would get if you fed a raw diet.

ORIGINAL: littlesaint



The are many arguments that the canine digestive system is designed for raw foods which inherently contain digestive enzymes and the diet itself has little starch making large amounts of enzymes unnecessary. As a result the canine pancreas doesn't produce these enzymes in high amounts.

 Generally the amount of enzymes in these supplements is no more than what you would get if you fed a raw diet.

Really? Raw meats have enzymes? Digestive ones??? How long does it take for a dog to digest their dinner? A couple hours, tops, right? If you put a steak on the countertop, how much digestion occurs in a couple hours? NONE. Thats right, none. Whatever "enzymes" are found in raw meats do not contribute to digestion and are therefore insignificant. If anything, they are digested themselves when entering the acidic environment of the stomach because the pH of the muscle and bone is much higher than that of the stomach. Anyone who knows how proteins and enzymes function knows that the majority of enzymes have a very narrow range of pH in which they can function due to the structural changes that occur when the pH changes.

If your statement about digestive supplements is correct, then enzyme supplements really are a waste of money, because raw meat provides no significant amounts of digestive enzymes to the mix. I do, however, know this isn't true because dogs with pancreatic insufficiency can function well when given digestive enzymes. This does not mean, however, that a healthy dog needs them or even benefits from them (although they could I suppose).

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint



The are many arguments that the canine digestive system is designed for raw foods which inherently contain digestive enzymes and the diet itself has little starch making large amounts of enzymes unnecessary. As a result the canine pancreas doesn't produce these enzymes in high amounts.

Generally the amount of enzymes in these supplements is no more than what you would get if you fed a raw diet.

Really? Raw meats have enzymes? Digestive ones??? How long does it take for a dog to digest their dinner? A couple hours, tops, right? If you put a steak on the countertop, how much digestion occurs in a couple hours? NONE. Thats right, none. Whatever "enzymes" are found in raw meats do not contribute to digestion and are therefore insignificant. If anything, they are digested themselves when entering the acidic environment of the stomach because the pH of the muscle and bone is much higher than that of the stomach. Anyone who knows how proteins and enzymes function knows that the majority of enzymes have a very narrow range of pH in which they can function due to the structural changes that occur when the pH changes.

If your statement about digestive supplements is correct, then enzyme supplements really are a waste of money, because raw meat provides no significant amounts of digestive enzymes to the mix. I do, however, know this isn't true because dogs with pancreatic insufficiency can function well when given digestive enzymes. This does not mean, however, that a healthy dog needs them or even benefits from them (although they could I suppose).

Why must you always insult people who disagree you? I presented a very prevalent argument made by vets and nutritionists concerning the use of digestive enzymes. If you disagree fine, but you don't have to insult people. If you do some research on raw and holistic diets, you'll find information completely contradicts what you stated. And yes, raw meats contain digestive enzymes as do raw vegetables and legumes. And yes, these enzymes can survive the stomach when buffered by the food consumed. Try doing some research next time if your going to be so conclusive with your statements.

ORIGINAL: littlesaint

Try doing some research next time if your going to be so conclusive with your statements.

I've done my research, taken my nutritionist classes, and that argument comes straight from one of the top veterinary nutritionists in the nation, who was flown to our veterinary college to teach an intensive 2 week nutrition course. Show me a peer-reviewed research article that proves raw meat contains DIGESTIVE enzymes... every living cell contains tons of enzymes, there's no doubt about that, but I have yet to find scientific proof that they contribute in any way to digestion.

Do I think raw foods are more easily digested by dogs, yes... do "enzymes" from the meat have anything to do with it... I really don't think so.

For years, I have gone on and off of health food kicks,,vitamin kicks and different things I have read or seen on TV.  During one of those times...we got a hold of some information about what yeast does to your body.  Human body,,,not dogs.   The list of problems that it could cause was unbelievably long.  Both my friend and my sister are on medicine to help control yeast...to stop many of their symptoms.   I think for me since many human doctors agree to this thought, I sure can give Linda credit for studying it. Here is a good link to read...written by a doctor on the subject. http://www.herbldoc.com/ENZCANALR.htm

Hmmm this isn't actually written by a physician, the person calls themselves a Dr. but their degree is N.D.????? Most of what is on that page is unsubstanciated and honestly untrue. Trust me, if you have yeast in your blood as that page asserts, you are close to death. Fungal sepsis is life threatening and uniformly fatal if untreated. Bacterial translocation from the intestinal tract happens when one has breakdown of the mucosa like in IBD, never someone with a normal digestive tract. I have never seen fungal translocation ever. As for the theory of antibody/antigen deposition that would be a type III hypersensitivity reaction and people with that are also very, very sick. Everyone has yeast as normal skin flora, but it is not linked scientifically to all the ailments that some claim. I don't buy any of it from my clinical experience. As for the digestive enzymes, I just can't understand it either, especially since the people that promote it's use are often the same ones who are against using all sorts of things that aren't needed like heartworm preventatives and flea medications. Why is something that potentially can render your pancreas quiescent ok? Do they aid in digestion, probably, but you don't need them so why take the risk. I wonder if she gets any kickback on the supplements she recommends?

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint

Try doing some research next time if your going to be so conclusive with your statements.

I've done my research, taken my nutritionist classes, and that argument comes straight from one of the top veterinary nutritionists in the nation, who was flown to our veterinary college to teach an intensive 2 week nutrition course. Show me a peer-reviewed research article that proves raw meat contains DIGESTIVE enzymes... every living cell contains tons of enzymes, there's no doubt about that, but I have yet to find scientific proof that they contribute in any way to digestion.

Do I think raw foods are more easily digested by dogs, yes... do "enzymes" from the meat have anything to do with it... I really don't think so.

That's the point of the argument. It goes against mainstream science which is, for the most part, what is taught academically, but anecdotal results are seen, not just in animals, but human nutrition as well. It's the classic argument of theoretical, lab based science, and anecdotal field results. The science behind digestive enzymes may be misguided or even flawed, but you can't ignore the results some have shown. And these aren't self-appointed "nutritional analysts" or breeders, it's vets and doctors who support the results.

I work for a health system in Cleveland, one of the very best in the world. 5 years ago if you mentioned the words alternative or holistic medicine you'd be laughed off campus. Today the have an entire center devoted to those very things. Why? Because it gets results. The science doesn't necessarily support it, and personally I think a lot of it is crap, but I can't ignore that it works and today, is considered a legitimate practice. The point is just because "pseudoscience" isn't taught in the classroom doesn't mean there aren't some legitimate arguments being made, especially when there's anecdotal evidence supporting it.

The point is just because "pseudoscience" isn't taught in the classroom doesn't mean there aren't some legitimate arguments being made, especially when there's anecdotal evidence supporting it.

I do agree with this somewhat, but anecdotal evidence is proof of nothing. Anecdotal evidence is nothing more then a loose correlation which we all know doesn't even come close to proving causation. Lots of people come to me with anecdotal evidence that black salve cures breast cancer but every single person I've ever had that used it died of their disease within 2 years. It would be very unwise for me to recommend it for this reason, enzymes although clearly not as significant as the salve, but the point is the same. Do you really want your vet recommending something with no scientific proof?

As for the digestive enzymes, I just can't understand it either, especially since the people that promote it's use are often the same ones who are against using all sorts of things that aren't needed like heartworm preventatives and flea medications.

Not sure who or what you are talking about here. 
 
I DO feel there is one heck of a difference between digestive enzymes and pesticides such as HW preventative and flea meds. Can't really see them being used in the same conversation.

I work for a health system in Cleveland, one of the very best in the world. 5 years ago if you mentioned the words alternative or holistic medicine you'd be laughed off campus. Today the have an entire center devoted to those very things.

 
I also know of a health care system in Cleveland, might be the same one, that has a holistic center now. A couple yrs back, this was unheard of. One of the best vet care centers in Akron, Oh, also has a holistic vet center. This vet facility has people coming from nearby states for the oncology department, and other specialists they have, so really wonderful to see they now have a holistic healing center. I think we will be seeing more and more holistic medicines becoming mainstream, and getting the respect from the traditional medical comunity.

I came across that clinic last year, while looking to see my options on an ER clinic.  I havent been there but it sure looks wonderful!  Its about 30 minutes from my home.
 

I came across that clinic last year, while looking to see my options on an ER clinic. I havent been there but it sure looks wonderful! Its about 30 minutes from my home.

 
It is wonderful! They even have a door greeter, who will sit down with you as you wait, and talk to everyone. Very welcoming, and the care is outstanding.

Nice to know that its not too far from me.
I just wish the ERs were closer.. the two closest to my house are about the same distance...going opposite ways.  Having a Great Dane that I worry about bloat...I want an ER next door to me. 

Nice to know that its not too far from me.
I just wish the ERs were closer.. the two closest to my house are about the same distance...going opposite ways. Having a Great Dane that I worry about bloat...I want an ER next door to me.

 
I have never gone there for the ER, only to see specialists. This is were my puppy had her scar removal done, and my one Pug for her Mast cell tumors, but I would have complete confidence in their ER care. Much nicer than the ERs near my part of town!