Need help finding a healthy, weight control food

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency

Fact 1: Dog needs certain amount of protein, including certain minimum amounts of each amino acid, certain amounts of vitamins, minerals, etc .

Fact 2: You decide your dog is very fat, and give dog 30% less kibble. Your dog is now getting 30% fewer calories, BUT ALSO 30% less than the aa/vit/min requirements. Fewer calories, true, but not enough of everything else.

Fact 3: *Quality* weight control foods are usually higher in protein and supplementation, etc to combat this, and lower in fat. So the dog can still get the reccommended amount of other nutrients, but take in  fewer calories.

I think exercise is the best weight loss, of course. However, moderately to severly restricting intake, especially long term, can be detrimental. I am NOT talking about feeding pets on the light end - Studies do show that eating sparingly INCREASES lifespan. I am talking about putting dogs on DIETS simply by dramatically reducing amount of kibble.

That is why weight-control foods are sometimes necessary, when you really need to reduce calorie consumption.

Thank You.  This is why I like Royal Canin Laborador as a weight managment food. It has 30% protien - 13% fat.  I also recommended canned foods that were higher in protien, lower in fat.  I agree that weight managment foods are useful, but I wouldn't feed one that has a bunch of artificial colors and gross possibly cancer causing ingredients.  Come-on.  Sure make the dog loose weight fast by feeding him cancer causing ingredients.  That's Smart[>:]

Sure make the dog loose weight fast by feeding him cancer causing ingredients.

 
Huh?  Like what exactly?

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency


Sure, your dog is going to lose weight on EVO reduced fat - it's reduced fat !

Well...thats what it is supposed to do[]  If it is so easy to reduce the fat in a dog food so that dog's will lose weight, then why don't the poor dog food companies do that too, cause their weight reducing formulas don't work very well. A friend of mine has 3 different dogs that were a bit overweight.  The vet told him to get one of these "weight loss dry foods".  They hardly lost anything despite very small and measure portion sizes. They did seem to lose energy .however.  The Protein level in the food was about 18%.  He switched to EVO LF and within a couple of weeks, they lost the excess weight, with much more energy.  While I dion't believe in anecdotal stories to prove something, I felt this food was worth a shot, and I actualluy talked to a company rep at a Dog fest a couple of weeks ago.  Since switching to EVO LF  my dog has lost almost all the excess weight she needed to, and I am feeding her a bigger portions  that contain MORE CALORIES" than what she was previously being fed on both Natural Balance and Canidae.

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency

Fact 1: Dog needs certain amount of protein, including certain minimum amounts of each amino acid, certain amounts of vitamins, minerals, etc .

Fact 2: You decide your dog is very fat, and give dog 30% less kibble. Your dog is now getting 30% fewer calories, BUT ALSO 30% less than the aa/vit/min requirements. Fewer calories, true, but not enough of everything else.

Fact 3: *Quality* weight control foods are usually higher in protein and supplementation, etc to combat this, and lower in fat. So the dog can still get the reccommended amount of other nutrients, but take in  fewer calories.

I think exercise is the best weight loss, of course. However, moderately to severly restricting intake, especially long term, can be detrimental. I am NOT talking about feeding pets on the light end - Studies do show that eating sparingly INCREASES lifespan. I am talking about putting dogs on DIETS simply by dramatically reducing amount of kibble.

That is why weight-control foods are sometimes necessary, when you really need to reduce calorie consumption.

Thank You.  This is why I like Royal Canin Laborador as a weight managment food. It has 30% protien - 13% fat.  I also recommended canned foods that were higher in protien, lower in fat.  I agree that weight managment foods are useful, but I wouldn't feed one that has a bunch of artificial colors and gross possibly cancer causing ingredients.  Come-on.  Sure make the dog loose weight fast by feeding him cancer causing ingredients.  That's Smart[>:]

What amazes me is this forum is on Nutrition and yet there are people recommending the worst foods you can buy for your dog.  That would be like going to a health food site and seeing people recommend feeding your kids Dunkin Donunts and a Coke for breakfast, and Fast food for the rest of the day. 

This is why I like Royal Canin Laborador as a weight managment food. It has 30% protien - 13% fat.

it doesn't. It says on the bag it has 30% protein; but really, most of that protein is from the corn gluten, which is not a complete protein. It probably has close to 20% USABLE protein in it.
RC lab food works as a weight management food because the kibbles are huge airy puffs-  your fond deluded owner can feed the dog six cups of the stuff and think the dog will be full. Course when it hits the dogs stomach and gets crunched up those six cups end up as close to 2 cups.

What amazes me is this forum is on Nutrition and yet there are people recommending the worst foods you can buy for your dog. That would be like going to a health food site and seeing people recommend feeding your kids Dunkin Donunts and a Coke for breakfast, and Fast food for the rest of the day.

Very good point Bob.

PS Can someone please tell me how to add the username of the person i am quoting in the quote box?

Like Bobs above reply

quote:

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

 

Let's look at some actual scientific studies instead of bickering like preschoolers:
 
1) adding fiber to foods doesn't affect doggy hunger levels
 
Am J Vet Res. 1997 Mar;58(3):272-6.







Links

Effect of amount and type of dietary fiber on food intake in energy-restricted dogs.

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Butterwick+RF%22%5BAuthor%5D]Butterwick RF[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Markwell+PJ%22%5BAuthor%5D]Markwell PJ[/link].
WALTHAM Centre for Pet Nutrition, Waltham-on-the-Wolds, Leicestershire, England.
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of adding different amounts of insoluble (IF) or soluble (SF) dietary fiber to a commercial diet formulated for weight reduction on satiety and perception of hunger in dogs. ANIMALS: 6 adult dogs. PROCEDURE: Test diets included 2 low-fiber control diets (CL1 and CL2), 2 diets with increased amount of IF (IF1 and IF2), and 2 diets with increased amount of SF (SF1 and SF2). Each test diet was fed for 12 days to 6 dogs in a Latin square design, and in amounts that correspond to the food allowance recommended for weight reduction. Behavioral characteristics of dogs were recorded for 30-minute periods after introduction of test diets. On 2 occasions during each test period, exactly 3 hours after feeding of the test diet, dogs were given a challenge meal consisting of a standard commercial canned dog food ad libitum. At the end of each 12-day feeding period, all dogs entered a 6-day washout period in which they were offered a standard commercial canned dog food ad libitum. RESULTS: Diet had no significant effect on intake of the challenge meal, intake of food during the subsequent washout period, or perception of hunger, as represented by behavioral characteristics during the 30-minute period after presentation of test diets. In addition, diet had no significant effect on percentage of weight loss. CONCLUSIONS: Inclusion of high amounts of IF or SF in a commercial low-energy diet has no apparent beneficial effects on satiety when fed to dogs on an energy intake regimen corresponding to allowances for weight reduction.
PMID: 9055973 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
 
2) low carb high protein diets work best for weight loss in dogs
 
J Nutr. 2004 Aug;134(8 Suppl):2148S-2150S.[linkrId=3051&uid=15284423&db=pubmed&url=http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&mid=15284423]>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?itool=AbstractPlus-def&rId=3051&uid=15284423&db=pubmed&url=http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&mid=15284423][/link] 







Links

Rapid weight loss with a high-protein low-energy diet allows the recovery of ideal body composition and insulin sensitivity in obese dogs.

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Blanchard+G%22%5BAuthor%5D]Blanchard G[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Nguyen+P%22%5BAuthor%5D]Nguyen P[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Gayet+C%22%5BAuthor%5D]Gayet C[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Leriche+I%22%5BAuthor%5D]Leriche I[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Siliart+B%22%5BAuthor%5D]Siliart B[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Paragon+BM%22%5BAuthor%5D]Paragon BM[/link].
Nutrition Unit, National Veterinary School of Alfort, Maisons Alfort, France. gblanchard@vet-alfort.fr
PMID: 15284423 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
J Nutr. 2004 Aug;134(8 Suppl):2087S-2089S.[linkrId=3051&uid=15284409&db=pubmed&url=http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&mid=15284409]>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?itool=AbstractPlus-def&rId=3051&uid=15284409&db=pubmed&url=http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&mid=15284409][/link] 







Links

High-protein low-carbohydrate diets enhance weight loss in dogs.

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Bierer+TL%22%5BAuthor%5D]Bierer TL[/link],

[link>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Bui+LM%22%5BAuthor%5D]Bui LM[/link].
Masterfoods USA, Vernon, CA 90058, USA. tiffany.bierer@effem.com
PMID: 15284409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
 
Several studies showed the potential benefits of a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet on reducing body weight in humans ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB6]6[/link],[linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB7]7[/link]). These diets are also associated with decreases in serum TG as compared to diets high in carbohydrates. The results of the study reported here suggest that these same benefits can also be obtained in dogs fed high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets.
Despite claims that subjects consuming high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets lose weight with no reduction in calories, recent evidence indicates that the ad libitum consumption of low-carbohydrate diets compared to high-carbohydrate diets is associated with increases in satiety and an overall decrease in total caloric intake ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB8]8[/link]). In a review of the efficacy of low-carbohydrate diets ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB3]3[/link]), weight was associated with decreased caloric intake and increased diet duration and not simply with a change in the macronutrient profile of the diet. Low-carbohydrate diets also help stabilize blood glucose levels throughout the day, preventing the hypoglycemia after a high-carbohydrate meal that causes hunger ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB8]8[/link],[linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB9]9[/link]). This study, however, found no differences in the calories consumed among the groups, whereas the low-carbohydrate groups still lost significantly more weight and fat mass than the high-carbohydrate groups. This suggests that decreased caloric intake is not the sole mechanism of action of low-carbohydrate diets.
Layman et al. ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB9]9[/link]) observed no difference in weight loss in humans consuming high-carbohydrate diets compared to those consuming low-carbohydrate, high-protein weight loss diets. However, there was a greater loss in fat mass in those subjects on the low-carbohydrate diets. They conclude that substituting carbohydrates for protein in a weight-loss diet induces a greater metabolism of fat than a high-carbohydrate diet. In a study by Johnston et al. ([linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S#BIB10]10[/link]), substitution of protein for carbohydrate in a low-fat diet was associated with an increase in postprandial thermogenesis. This increase in energy expenditure could help explain the increase loss in body weight and body fat observed with high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets in this study.
Although the CLA group tended to have a greater fat mass loss than the control group, the difference was not significant in this study. In addition, no additive effect of CLA on weight loss or body composition was noted in the group fed CLA in combination with a high-protein diet. These results suggest that the macronutrient change from high-carbohydrate to high-protein content has a greater effect on increasing weight loss than does the addition of CLA to a diet.
This study evaluated the benefits of high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets as well as CLA addition on reducing body weight in dogs. Changing the macronutrient profile of a canine weight-loss diet from a high-carbohydrate level to one primarily based on protein can promote greater weight loss without further reductions in caloric intake. This weight loss is driven primarily from an increased loss of fat mass while maintaining lean muscle mass.
 
 
 
 
case closed. Your dog is far better off being fed reduced fat EVO as a weight loss plan than Purina fit n trim.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

This is why I like Royal Canin Laborador as a weight managment food. It has 30% protien - 13% fat.

it doesn't. It says on the bag it has 30% protein; but really, most of that protein is from the corn gluten, which is not a complete protein. It probably has close to 20% USABLE protein in it.
RC lab food works as a weight management food because the kibbles are huge airy puffs-  your fond deluded owner can feed the dog six cups of the stuff and think the dog will be full. Course when it hits the dogs stomach and gets crunched up those six cups end up as close to 2 cups.

It's like eating Rice cakes all day long....

ORIGINAL: Edie

What amazes me is this forum is on Nutrition and yet there are people recommending the worst foods you can buy for your dog. That would be like going to a health food site and seeing people recommend feeding your kids Dunkin Donunts and a Coke for breakfast, and Fast food for the rest of the day.

Very good point Bob.

PS Can someone please tell me how to add the username of the person i am quoting in the quote box?

Like Bobs above reply

quote:

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

 

It should happen automatically when you hit the Quote Icon in the upper right side of the post

their weight reducing formulas don't work very well.
 
Sources that say so, besides "my friend this and my friend that and I heard this?" If a good quality weight reducing formula doesn't work, it is due to owner compliance.
 
A friend of mine has 3 different dogs that were a bit overweight. The vet told him to get one of these "weight loss dry foods". They hardly lost anything despite very small and measure portion sizes. They did seem to lose energy .however. The Protein level in the food was about 18%. He switched to EVO LF and within a couple of weeks, they lost the excess weight, with much more energy.
 
Ok, that is like saying. "Yesterday I didn't take a shower, and it didn't rain outside. But today, I clapped my hands, and it rained. So therefore, me not taking a shower prevents rain, and if I want it to rain, I need to clap my hands"
 
Just because one thing FOLLOWS another does not logically mean they are related.
 
While I dion't believe in anecdotal stories to prove something, I felt this food was worth a shot, and I actualluy talked to a company rep at a Dog fest a couple of weeks ago. Since switching to EVO LF my dog has lost almost all the excess weight she needed to, and I am feeding her a bigger portions that contain MORE CALORIES" than what she was previously being fed on both Natural Balance and Canidae.
 
Then something else is going on because it is metabolically impossible to lose body mass while increasing caloric intake.

Well, what i know for fact is my brother's bassett hound and his dalmatian both lost weight on Fit & Trim.  My Scooter and my Honey both lost weight on Fit and Trim.  My KayCee didnn't.  She lost weight on SD r/d and kept it off with Fit and Trim, but is now on purina one Senior and is still not putting the weight back on.  Of course my brothers's dogs losing weight is just what he said he fed them and the thinner dogs I  saw and I took his word it was Fit and Trim that did the job for his dogs.  I bought and fed the Fit and Trim to mine so i know for dead certain it worked for mine.
 
I gotta admit i never heard of losing weight by taking in more calories.  I would love to be able to eat a few more chips, a little more butter on my bread, an extra cookie, an extra helping of sweet potatoes.  But if i did, i would gain weight, as i always did in the past.  And i can't help but wonder why our dogs have always lived so long eating the equivalent of donuts and cokes every day of their lives for 10-15 years!
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency

their weight reducing formulas don't work very well.

Sources that say so, besides "my friend this and my friend that and I heard this?" If a good quality weight reducing formula doesn't work, it is due to owner compliance.

A friend of mine has 3 different dogs that were a bit overweight. The vet told him to get one of these "weight loss dry foods". They hardly lost anything despite very small and measure portion sizes. They did seem to lose energy .however. The Protein level in the food was about 18%. He switched to EVO LF and within a couple of weeks, they lost the excess weight, with much more energy.

Ok, that is like saying. "Yesterday I didn't take a shower, and it didn't rain outside. But today, I clapped my hands, and it rained. So therefore, me not taking a shower prevents rain, and if I want it to rain, I need to clap my hands"

Just because one thing FOLLOWS another does not logically mean they are related.

While I dion't believe in anecdotal stories to prove something, I felt this food was worth a shot, and I actualluy talked to a company rep at a Dog fest a couple of weeks ago. Since switching to EVO LF my dog has lost almost all the excess weight she needed to, and I am feeding her a bigger portions that contain MORE CALORIES" than what she was previously being fed on both Natural Balance and Canidae.

Then something else is going on because it is metabolically impossible to lose body mass while increasing caloric intake.

The dog's energy level is higher with the higher protein food, so they burn more calories during the day.  I don't see why that is difficult to figure out. People have tried losing weight for years in the US, by eating high carb, low protein diets, and guess what, the US is fatter than ever.  Same goes for the dogs.  I see dogs every day that waddle around with too much weight, and one of the biggest causes of that is the low protein , high carb, mega dog food companies' dog junk food.   Those companies care as much about your pets health and well being, as the Chinese companies adding chemicals to the food to increase their profit margin.....In other words, they couldn't care less...

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

Well, what i know for fact is my brother's bassett hound and his dalmatian both lost weight on Fit & Trim.  My Scooter and my Honey both lost weight on Fit and Trim.  My KayCee didnn't.  She lost weight on SD r/d and kept it off with Fit and Trim, but is now on purina one Senior and is still not putting the weight back on.  Of course my brothers's dogs losing weight is just what he said he fed them and the thinner dogs I  saw and I took his word it was Fit and Trim that did the job for his dogs.  I bought and fed the Fit and Trim to mine so i know for dead certain it worked for mine.

I gotta admit i never heard of losing weight by taking in more calories.  I would love to be able to eat a few more chips, a little more butter on my bread, an extra cookie, an extra helping of sweet potatoes.  But if i did, i would gain weight, as i always did in the past.  And i can't help but wonder why our dogs have always lived so long eating the equivalent of donuts and cokes every day of their lives for 10-15 years!

How can anyone in good consience, feed a dog a food that is made of these ingredients



Ground yellow corn, ground whole wheat, soybean meal, corn germ meal, soybean hulls*, corn gluten meal, turkey by-product meal, chicken by-product meal, meat and bone meal, animal digest, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), calcium carbonate, salt, added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 2), zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, brewers dried yeast, manganese sulfate, manganese proteinate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, copper proteinate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.
[color="#000000"]
What garbage for a dog to eat.  If I had some chickens, they would probably love it and lay eggs like crazy.  Grain, grain and more grain...  Unreal that this company has the nerve to sell this stuff to people as Dog Food.  I am surprised it doesn't contain some styrafoam......

[/color]

People have tried losing weight for years in the US, by eating high carb, low protein diets, and guess what, the US is fatter than ever.
 
Then how do you explain the fact that the healthiest people in the world eat high carbohydrate, low rotein diets? I.e. vegetarians? Mediterranean diet?

Did you people read the abstracts I posted above?   if you reduce the amount of input calories or increase the amount of output calories (exercise) your dog will lose weight. Doesn't matter what you feed. However, if you feed N calories per day of a high carb/low protein food your dog will lose LESS body fat than if you feed the exact same number of calories per day of a high protein/ low carb diet. Feeding dogs foods doped up with "filler" didn't make them any less hungry.
 
 
I'm not at all surprised that dogs lose weight on Fit n trim. If you feed your dog sawdust, he'll lose weight. Does he get healthier?  seems so unlikely. Just because dog is thin doesn't mean dog is healthy.