Melamine toxicity

One could easily argue that owners reported affected pets to PetConnection immediately, and it took time for the FDA to confirm those same cases. One does not negate the other.

 
"As of April 26, 2007, FDA had
          received over 17,000 consumer complaints relating to this
          outbreak, and those complaints included reports of approximately
          1950 deaths of cats and 2200 deaths of dogs. "
 
These numbers haven't been confirmed yet.  Just consumer complaints.
 
The USA today article [linkhttp://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm]http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm[/link]
states
"The agency for the first time also said it has received reports, which it has yet to confirm, that approximately 1,950 cats and 2,200 dogs died after eating contaminated food. The only number of pet deaths that the FDA has confirmed thus far is 14."
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

One could easily argue that owners reported affected pets to PetConnection immediately, and it took time for the FDA to confirm those same cases. One does not negate the other.

"As of April 26, 2007, FDA had
         received over 17,000 consumer complaints relating to this
         outbreak, and those complaints included reports of approximately
         1950 deaths of cats and 2200 deaths of dogs. "

These numbers haven't been confirmed yet.  Just consumer complaints.

The USA today article [linkhttp://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm]http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm[/link]
states
"The agency for the first time also said it has received reports, which it has yet to confirm, that approximately 1,950 cats and 2,200 dogs died after eating contaminated food. The only number of pet deaths that the FDA has confirmed thus far is 14."

Exactly.  Yet another example of Itchmo bending the information for a sensational headline.

Here's a website quoting the pathologist looking into the cyanuric acid angle that makes the situation seem much less dire:

[blockquote]Hoff#%92s other points affirm what I and others have reported, but he's done additional work to confirm the following:

Agreed cats are far more impacted than dogs, and also sick or otherwise ill pets have been more susceptible than healthy animals Puppies and kittens have also been at increased risk.

When rushed to a vet soon, these pets affected by tainted food recovered faster and better than typical acute renal failure cases. The response to eating tainted food has been called ‘acute renal failure#%92 because there are many similarities to acute renal failure. But there are too many difference; it turns out this isn#%92t exactly really acute renal failure. The good news is that once recovered (unlike classic acute renal failure), Hoff doesn't expect these affected animals to have permanent kidney damage.

Happily, it seems likely rather than thousands, hundreds of pets (in America) may have died. Certainly no pet dying needlessly is good news. But it is good news if the numbers, as Hoff and many other maintain, are lower than reports elsewhere. [/blockquote][linkhttp://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259&Itemid=71]http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259&Itemid=71[/link]

Oh, OK. So our pets are being poisoned, but not permanently damaged. At least not most of them. Well, most of the ones that live. And that's only hundreds not thousands, so that's OK too.

I think it sounds an awful lot like we're nitpicking and missing the forest for the trees (how's that for a mixed metaphor?). The major point is that suppliers in China have been adding things to food products, things that nobody is sure are safe. That's a fact, not fear mongering or sensationalism.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

One could easily argue that owners reported affected pets to PetConnection immediately, and it took time for the FDA to confirm those same cases. One does not negate the other.

"As of April 26, 2007, FDA had
         received over 17,000 consumer complaints relating to this
         outbreak, and those complaints included reports of approximately
         1950 deaths of cats and 2200 deaths of dogs. "

These numbers haven't been confirmed yet.  Just consumer complaints.

The USA today article [linkhttp://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm]http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-30-chinese-imports-usat_N.htm[/link]
states
"The agency for the first time also said it has received reports, which it has yet to confirm, that approximately 1,950 cats and 2,200 dogs died after eating contaminated food. The only number of pet deaths that the FDA has confirmed thus far is 14."

The problem is that cats are FAR more susceptible than dogs... so the cat numbers should be at least 3 times higher than the dog numbers. One of those numbers is definately inaccurate. Either failure to report, over-reporting or both.

People have mentioned that this has most likely been going on for possibly years.  And this I believe is most likely plausable.
 
Just how many years of feeding and have the concentrations, of whatever the Chinese have done to the starches to beef it up, to increase this likelyhood that pets will actually get sick enough and die if not caught before it is too late.
 
When a pet presents with kidney failure, it is pretty dismal looking.  But when you can not find out why your pet is sick, that is making matters worse.  Finding out that melamine and potential other things in the food is not something to just call a hype.  It needs reckoning.  And if the Chinese producers had any decency at all, they would at this point in time fess up.
 
Scientific investigation of this needs all counterparts involved.  Dx, tissue sampling, and accurate tests to ascertain just what and where the animal is getting ill from needs to become well known.
 
Until then we will be stuck with all of the hypothetics you can find.  And you can't trust what won't be told.  Glad that the FDA has become more firm on that, finally.

I dont know how they make "feed" for hogs and chickens (for example).  Does anyone here?  (I am honestly asking, not being rhetorical)  Lots of these reports from china are saying that it was used in feed for years but not specifically in pet foods.
 
Are these feeds not baked/cooked like dog/cat food?  Is this the difference in why melamine wouldnt cause problems in feed?  It wasnt cooked to cause it to break down into other compounds.  (Just thinkin out loud here)
 
All these grain fractions are relatively new to pet food IMO.  eople (consumers and pet owners) began to read labels and poo-poo the corn and grains they were full of.  Pet food makers began to fraction all the grains to make the meats appear higher on the ingredient list.  Sad to think our interest in better food (combined with greed) could have led us down this road.

Has anyone actually proven that the melamine in the food is toxic, and in significant quantities to cause kidney failure? I'm not talking about some forum post, or one of itchmo's sensationalized scare stories. I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

 
  [linkhttp://www.avma.org/press/releases/070501_petfoodrecall.asp]http://www.avma.org/press/releases/070501_petfoodrecall.asp[/link];
[align=center]
"Melamine and Cyanuric Acid Interaction May Play Part in Illness and Death from Recalled Pet FoodSCHAUMBURG, Ill.
— Tests conducted on contaminated pet food and necropsies from affected animals have resulted in a new theory to explain how animals are being adversely affected by contaminated pet foods. A chemical reaction between melamine and cyanuric acid is suspected of forming crystals and blocking kidney function.
 
The investigation into contaminated pet food has focused on melamine contamination of ingredients imported from China, such as wheat gluten, rice protein concentrate and corn gluten (imported into South Africa). It is now believed that cyanuric acid, as well as melamine, has been found in urine samples from animals that died.
Analysis of the crystals in the kidneys of affected animals have revealed that they are approximately 70 percent cyanuric acid and 30 percent melamine, and are extremely insoluble. Furthermore, tests mixing melamine and cyanuric acid in samples of cat urine resulted in almost immediate formation of crystals that were identical to crystals found in the kidneys of affected animals. Two other melamine- related substances—ammelide and ammeline—may also play roles and are under investigation."
 
  
 
 
   

ORIGINAL: KCSO

All these grain fractions are relatively new to pet food IMO.  eople (consumers and pet owners) began to read labels and poo-poo the corn and grains they were full of.  Pet food makers began to fraction all the grains to make the meats appear higher on the ingredient list.  Sad to think our interest in better food (combined with greed) could have led us down this road.

 
Melamine is not being added to grain fractions in general, only to gluten which is added to foods as a cheaper way of bumping up the protein level, it has nothing to do with fractioning to make meat appear higher on the ingredients list.  When companies are testing the gluten for protein, the melamine reads as protein due to the high nitrogen content, thus giving a false protein reading.  So the pet food companies and/or their manufacturers are cutting corners by using glutens instead of meat, and then the Chinese suppliers are further cutting corners by adding melamine.  It's all about the bottom dollar, and why I never trust any profit-making corporation, or any organization that is influenced by the profit making corporations (including vet schools and their research, the FDA and AAFCO) with the health of my pets.

It would be SO ironic if the chinese were only caught spiking their products because they happened to add a bad batch (partly broken down, thus more toxic) of melamine to their recent products.

It would be SO ironic if the chinese were only caught spiking their products because they happened to add a bad batch (partly broken down, thus more toxic) of melamine to their recent products.

 
   It's now being reported that adding melamine to glutens has been common practice in China for years; they thought it was fine as long as they didn't add enough to make animals sick, and it's not illegal in China. So, there's the strong possibility they've been adding it to the glutens we've been importing from them before this was detected, and your theory that it was a bad batch that exposed this ractice is very plausible.

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

It would be SO ironic if the chinese were only caught spiking their products because they happened to add a bad batch (partly broken down, thus more toxic) of melamine to their recent products.

It's now being reported that adding melamine to glutens has been common practice in China for years; they thought it was fine as long as they didn't add enough to make animals sick, and it's not illegal in China. So, there's the strong possibility they've been adding it to the glutens we've been importing from them before this was detected, and your theory that it was a bad batch that exposed this ractice is very plausible.

That sortof makes all of this even scarier. At least they finally got caught. Good thinking!

It wouldn't bother me at all if we never imported any food from china... they just do things far too differently, and they're too far away to have any control.

Remember, not all illnesses/deaths reported to the FDA are actually related to the tainted gluten.  BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, how many are never reported that are caused by the tainted gluten?  With the proheart6, Dr. Hampshire, FDA vet said only 10 to 15% of the reactions & deaths were reported  This is getting more media coverage (something in our paper today) and getting more coverage on the net so i suspect more cases are being reported.  But there are millions of people who are not on forums to learn all the information.  Millions of people do not take their dogs to the vet if their dog sneezes twice or limps on the same foot for 15 minutes the way we do.  No telling how many died without ever seeing a vet.
 
When I say I spent $379 one week for Buck's old man physical total blood panel, anitibiotics, blood pressure meds, etc, and then almost $400 two weeks later for his dental, plus $92 for his thyroid meds in between, some people are shocked--$900 on a dog in two weeks time, for an old dog at that.  Why, they would just let nature take it's course and take him when it is time.  And you know what, a lot of these folks are the ones that don't think a think a thing of dropping $500 in one night on the gambing boat.  I get upset if I lose $5 because i usually win as i don't gamble big, don't take chances, etc.  Last night I won $28.40 over what I put in the machines. 
 
But the point is, some people refuse to pay vet bills, no matter how little or how much money they have.  And these pets will die and nobody will ever know the reason why.

cats especially. Lots of barns around here have well, barn cats, that are fed the cheapest possible cat food and expected to supplement it with mice. If barn cats disappear or get sick or die no one really notices or cares.

Our cat IS expected to supplement his dinner with mice. But then I know he actually prefers mice. And songbirds unfortunately but we've largely broken him of that by bringing him inside at night. We do interact closely with him every evening (my husband, anyway - I'm violently allergic to cats), and he eats the best possible cat food - Instincts TC raw mix. A healthy mouser is an effective hunter, contrary to common belief (that you have to starve a cat to make him hunt).

Um, why was I saying that? Oh, yes. You're right, that was one of the first things I thought of, that there would be many cats that would go away and die quietly and none the wiser because, you know, cats just run off.

Someone asked about chicken and pig food. It's either granulated (loose ingredients) or pelletized - I'm not sure of the exact process but it's a low heat, not high heat process - similiar to Bil-Jac if you've ever seen that, but most feeds the pellets are even smaller. You can take a bit of livestock feed and squoosh it or crumble it easily.

Chicken feeds at big contract operations are top secret formulas that not even the farmers know anything about. They are made somewhere and trucked straight to the contract operators, and loaded in the feed hoppers. The hoppers are programed to deliver the feed at set intervals to the stock in the houses. Chicken farmers literally never touch the feed after the first day when they clear away the special "starter pans."

I would guess therefore that the condemned pet food that was fed to chickens was done at small private broiler or breeder operations. I'm fairly confident then that none of these chickens are out there in the grocery store or in our restaurant chicken nuggets. For once the high degree of specialization in the chicken grower industry works in our favor. That's not to say these chickens couldn't end up in our PET food however. []

Pork growing is a whole other story. There's as many ways to raise pork as there are people who eat it, I think. There's all different kinds of contract growing - you can have people who feed weaners to grower stage, or weaner all the way to feeder stage, or grower to feeder, or sow/piglet all the way up to feeder or even market. It's like with cattle - there's all kinds of ways to get calves up to a certain weight and then they are all collected in one way and another by a yard owner, who feeds them up to slaughter weight.

And then there are different ways to contract the stock, and where the feed comes from and who controls what is fed and who keeps the records, depends on the type of contract the operator is working under. My head spins thinking of all the ways contaminated feed could enter this system. Heck, they have a hard enough time regulating rodent control - very important because pigs EAT mice and rats and this contaminates the meat.

Very scary.

"As of April 26, 2007, FDA had
received over 17,000 consumer complaints relating to this
outbreak, and those complaints included reports of approximately
1950 deaths of cats and 2200 deaths of dogs "

These numbers haven't been confirmed yet.  Just consumer complaints.

 
   These numbers haven't been confirmed either but they are worth reporting here because they are double the previous number [X(] ; [linkhttp://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-petfood4may04,0,4416256.story?coll=la-home-headlines]http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-petfood4may04,0,4416256.story?coll=la-home-headlines[/link];
 
Reported pet deaths at 8,500, FDA says;
 
Consumers have reported the deaths of as many as 8,500 dogs and cats as a result of tainted pet food, federal officials said Thursday.

In the two months since reports of a few pet deaths led to a massive U.S. pet food recall, the Food and Drug Administration said about half of the calls to its hot line were from owners of deceased cats and dogs.

Officials said the agency had not confirmed those reports but added that the numbers of allegations were likely to rise as it caught up with a backlog of calls reporting sick or dead animals.