Melamine toxicity

Has anyone actually proven that the melamine in the food is toxic, and in significant quantities to cause kidney failure? I'm not talking about some forum post, or one of itchmo's sensationalized scare stories. I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

My point being, what if China has been doctoring grain-based proteins with melamine all along. A sudden increase in reported kidney failures causes an investigation. The melamine is found, but what if it really isn't the cause. Sure it shouldn't be in the food, but what if it's not killing anything. Now we have a red herring. No studies I've seen have shown melamine or any of its by-products are toxic in the amounts found in the food, or in the kidneys.

I'd also like to see some numbers from vets on how many kidney failures do to melamine toxicity have actually been documented.

 
  Researchers in Canada think it's the combination of melamine and cyanuric acid that's responsible for the kidney failure in animals;
 
   [linkhttp://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=f984f695-20e9-4954-b96b-9e2e60735ee7&k=36362]http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=f984f695-20e9-4954-b96b-9e2e60735ee7&k=36362[/link];
 

Discovery by Guelph scientists may show how recalled pet food became toxic
GUELPH, Ont. (CP) - Scientists at the University of Guelph say they have discovered a chemical process that may explain how pets in Canada and the United States were affected by contaminants discovered in recalled pet food products last month. They found that melamine and cyanuric acid - compounds identified as contaminants in the gluten that was used in the recalled pet food - react with one another to form crystals that may block kidney function.
Tests conducted at the university's laboratory identified these crystal-like substances in the kidneys and urine of affected animals.
Further experiments showed that the chemical composition of the crystals that are formed when these two compounds interact matches the composition of urinary crystals removed from affected animals.
The scientists believe the findings may provide evidence of a link between these compounds and the deaths of pets exposed to contaminated food.
One researcher says the findings explain how two compounds that weren't dangerous on their own could become toxic when they react together.
 

ORIGINAL: littlesaint
 I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

Melamine in the urine has been associated with cases of kidney failure. The crystals seen in cases are characteristic, and have apparently been characterized as containing melamine...

Yes, melamine is killing our pets.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint
I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

Melamine in the urine has been associated with cases of kidney failure. The crystals seen in cases are characteristic, and have apparently been characterized as containing melamine...

Yes, melamine is killing our pets.

How can you deterministically say it is killing pets when all you state is that melamine has been seen in the kidneys.  What is the metabolism?  What is the toxicity?

As the above linked article describes, the contaminants together create big crystals in the kidneys.  The kidneys (basically a giant collection of tiny tubes) get obstructions from the crystals, then necrosis (tissue death), and eventually fail completely.

ORIGINAL: littlesaint

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint
I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

Melamine in the urine has been associated with cases of kidney failure. The crystals seen in cases are characteristic, and have apparently been characterized as containing melamine...

Yes, melamine is killing our pets.

How can you deterministically say it is killing pets when all you state is that melamine has been seen in the kidneys.  What is the metabolism?  What is the toxicity?

When 5,000 animals all come up with renal failure, with an age range of 2 months to 15 years (a 40% increase in incidence according to Banfield), and all of those animals have the same crystals, symptoms, and foreign chemicals in their diet, I would say there is a small correlation.

It takes time to figure out the metabolism and toxicity... it could be years before we completely understand the metabolic pathways. Science isn't something that works as quickly as you'd like...

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: littlesaint
I mean a vet or chemist or toxicologist has said that melamine is definitely causing kidney failure?

Melamine in the urine has been associated with cases of kidney failure. The crystals seen in cases are characteristic, and have apparently been characterized as containing melamine...

Yes, melamine is killing our pets.

How can you deterministically say it is killing pets when all you state is that melamine has been seen in the kidneys.  What is the metabolism?  What is the toxicity?

When 5,000 animals all come up with renal failure, with an age range of 2 months to 15 years (a 40% increase in incidence according to Banfield), and all of those animals have the same crystals, symptoms, and foreign chemicals in their diet, I would say there is a small correlation.

It takes time to figure out the metabolism and toxicity... it could be years before we completely understand the metabolic pathways. Science isn't something that works as quickly as you'd like...

You should know who are you talking to if you want to imply that you have some clue of my understanding of science.

Can you provide your source for the claim of 5000 animals with renal failure do to melamine toxicity?  If this is as wide spread as you state there should be some sort of toxicology numbers to give an indication of why a substance that has never been shown to be toxic except in large quantities is now all of a sudden killing pets in small concentrations. 

Actually, my point is not to criticize the science at all.  The point is all the Chicken Littles in the world are pointing to melamine in pet food and now human food, yet no one has been able to say how melamine is killing anything when it shouldn't be toxic in the concentrations seen.  Is anyone considering that melamine could be covering the real culprit?

For those mentioning the theory from Canada; cyanuric acid is a product of the metabolism of melamine.  It is not a seperate chemical in the contaminated food.  And again, the concentrations are not in sufficient amounts that it should cause renal failure.

It's actually a really interesting question littlesaint.  If you look on pubmed, the there are very few papers.  It seems melamine is known to cause tumors in the urinary sustem of rats and the effect is diminished with omega 3 administration.  In addition, it has been looked into as a medium for drug administration but has some hepatonecrosis with higher doses.  Renal failure or toxicity was not seen in anything there.  You would think that if that caused it you would have seen it in prior studies.  Correlation does NOT mean causation as any researcher knows.  Kinda makes you wonder what the underlying cause is for all this.  To me, it's still not clear and that is pretty scary!

You do bring up some interesting points.  I believe that there has been allot of hype in the reporting of the story especially by itchmo.  Read their headlines then the story behind them.  They really stretch it sometimes. That also goes for other news reports.
 
I do believe that there is real validity melamine is part of the cause of the problem.  Maybe not by itself but in combination with other factors. 
As far as the reported deaths well there could be some extra counting going or all problems occurring are being blamed on the food.  Part of the panic.  It always happens that way.  Look at 9/11, remember how many victims were originally reported. 
 
I had to stop at my vets this last week and asked her what she had seen and why it seemed to be affecting cats more than dogs.  Well she has seen only 1 case where it could be definitely attributed to the food.  She couldn't do anything so they went to the local specialists and they couldn't do anything and the case was sent to the UF vet school.  Well if all these vets reported the problem there is 3 cases reported about 1 cat.  She also said that cats liver and kidneys are more susceptible than a dogs to toxins and that is why you are seeing more cat cases.   I could see this as it seems that dogs are more opportunistic eaters than cats.  Nature made cats that way to protect cats health.  Also don't cats tend to breed more profusely than dogs??  I thought that I had seen that somewhere.  If that is the case again I see natures hand involved to keep the species viable.
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: littlesaint


You should know who are you talking to if you want to imply that you have some clue of my understanding of science.

Can you provide your source for the claim of 5000 animals with renal failure do to melamine toxicity? 

Well, who am I talking to? I can't know if you don't tell me...

Banfield hospitals ALONE saw 1,605 pets with acute renal failure. Banfield does not make up 25% of the pet hospital visits, so 5,000 sick pets is a huge underestimate in my opinion. And oh damn, I misquoted, it was only a 30% increase in acute renal failure.

http://wgnradio.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32132&Itemid=394

Are you asking if melamine is the problem, or if there IS a problem? To me, this is a huge problem, and melamine IS involved in some way. Is it the only cause? Who knows, and like I said, it will probably take quite a bit of time before this whole mess is worked out.

What do you think should be done differently??

Are you asking if melamine is the problem, or if there IS a problem? To me, this is a huge problem, and melamine IS involved in some way. Is it the only cause? Who knows, and like I said, it will probably take quite a bit of time before this whole mess is worked out.

It's definately possible as the researchers in canada that jesses_mom posted are looking into, I would agree it's probably not the cyanuric acid.  Since melamine somehow causes neoplastic degeneration in cells in the renal system, it's possible that it makes them more sensitive to the real culprit.  Hopefully they will find out soon so we all can stop worrying about our babies.

I think aside from the contamination it's frightening what we've found out about the pet food industry. The right hand does not know what the left is doing. And that's what I hate the most, since I have a dog that is very sensitive to even the most benign boo-boos.

Banfield hospitals ALONE saw 1,605 pets with acute renal failure. Banfield does not make up 25% of the pet hospital visits, so 5,000 sick pets is a huge underestimate in my opinion.

Wait i minute.  The link you provided states: 
 
"Pet owners who brought their animals to Banfield clinics complained 1,605 pets who reportedly ate the recalled food, less than one per cent of total pets examined at Banfield hospitals in this time frame. "
 
It doesn't say anywhere that I can see that 1605 had renal failure problems that was linked to the food.
 
Also what is stated is:
 
"Confirmed with an animal autopsy, five cats and one dog died as a result of the contaminated food. That number could rise somewhat as pathology reports continue to come in to Banfield. "
 
It goes on to say:
 
"The good news is that reports of thousands of dying at Banfield hospitals as result of poisoned food is absolutely untrue. In fact, the numbers of pets deaths nationwide may turn out to be in the hundreds, not thousands – though the exact numbers may never be known. "Thankfully it doesn't appear as though the death rate will be overwhelming numbers,” says Zimmerman."
 
Fyi:   Banfield senior medical advisor Dr. Nancy Zimmerman
 
 
 Edited to include:
 
This is directly from ITCHMO:
 
"The hospital chain saw 1 million dogs and cats during the three months when the more than 100 brands of now-recalled contaminated pet food were sold. It saw 284 extra cases of kidney failure among cats during that period, or a roughly 30 percent increase, when compared with background rates."
 
The hospital being Banfield.
 
Now looking at both articles it appears that of the 284 (and it doesn't state how many died) cases of kidney failure only 6 can be directly linked by autopsy. 
 
 
 
 
 

After the lies they told at Fort Dodge's attempt to bring proheart6 back, I would  NOT trust them with anything.  They claimed they had no dogs die from getting PH6 at theri clinics, but i read the stories of ones whose dogs did die, they reported to Banfiled.  Banfield also claimed hardly any reactions.  They did call ups to check.  when did they call?  The next day.  DAMN, such things as AIHA, liver damage (two leading reactions), most gastric problems don't show up intil weeks later. AND fORT DODGE SAID IT TOOK 7 DAYS FOR THE PROHEART TO GET INTO THE SYSTEM. (their reason why it COULD NOT be Proheart6 that sent dogs into seizures with hours or a couple of days of getting the injection. So how could Banfield know there were only one or two reactions if their only contact was the next day?  $hit, i would not take a dead skunk there to be treated.  I think they go with which the money is flowing.  Just my opinion aftter i read their testimony at the PH6 hearing and their replies to questions which in may cases were down right stupid.

Look I don't like Banfields either.  After a time when we were in petsmart and one of their vet techs identified my shelties as mini-collies and continued to insist that they were even after I corrected her, I wouldn't take my pups there.
But......
These numbers being thrown around and attributed to articles published just aren't backed up when you go out and throughly read the published reports.