Dog Community

Need suggestions for a K9 Athlete

Posted : 4/19/2007 4:48:41 PM

Ok, I've been feeding SG Wolf King. I will also every now and then mix in a little Evo RM, and now SG BATM. I also will feed raw.

Xerxes went coursing this past weekend and most of the experienced coursing people said that he was in "hard running condition." Some even commented that he was too lean and had too little fat. Normally I would take that with a grain of salt, however these were people that have been coursing and have had many coursing champions for quite a number of years.

They are recommending that I switch to Purina Pro-Plan Performance. I'm not a fan of Purina, but I'll admit that it sounds tempting to me...30% protein and 20% fat might help the boy gain some weight and pack on some muscle.

All of you that know me know that I put my dog's welfare above my personal beliefs and prejudices. The Evo RM has 41% protein and I'm not sure of the fat content. The BATM has 42% and 20% respectively.

Should I make the switch, as has been suggested, for a few months and see how he does? Or should I switch over to the BATM, which is a bit more affordable than the Evo?

Positive opinions are welcome, facts are welcome. Bad mouthing is not welcome as a response. I value this section for the advice I've been given thus far.

Thanks in advance.[

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ETA:
I forgot to add that I have just begun adding the SG Seameal to his evening meal.

Here is a link to the pics taken of him running (he is in the first 10 or 12 pics)
[linkhttp://www.umarapiti.com/2007photo/PHCA/Flash01JC/index.html]http://www.umarapiti.com/2007photo/PHCA/Flash01JC/index.html[/link]

To me he didin't look like he was too terribly thin, but he needs to store enough energy to run not twice but 4 or 5 or 6 times.

kennel_keeper

Posted : 4/19/2007 8:58:37 PM

It has been my experience (with performance beagles) that foods that are grain free or very low grain don't provide what they need to maintain condition for performance and/or conditioning.

I have tried grainless and grained foods and what has worked for MY dogs has been Eagle Pack Original. It has corn, yes, but they do alot better with it than without it. It also has several meat protein sources. It is my opinion that the corn is what helps my dogs. Before when I was rotating them on some of the other foods (without corn or grains), they looked dull, lacked muscle, and seemed to not be able to do as much (in the field) during times when they were getting alot of exercise. Some days, they run for 3 - 4 hours at a time and there are times when they run 3 or 4 days a week. They just couldn't keep up on these other foods.

Anyway, that is just my experience. I know MANY field trial people that swear by Pro Plan, but I've just never been really impressed with it and it's quite expensive for what you're getting. My dogs have never let me down on EP and have even placed several of them (one is a CHB (certified hunting beagle)) and has won the "show" 2 times and a Best in Show once.

ottoluv

Posted : 4/19/2007 9:02:23 PM

Here is a link to the pics taken of him running (he is in the first 10 or 12 pics) http://www.umarapiti.com/2007photo/PHCA/Flash01JC/index.html

No advice since I only have a "peformance" chi

Just wanted to say how cool those pics are, looks fun!

willowchow

Posted : 4/19/2007 9:07:08 PM

Ed--They are all the same fat percentage? I'm missing something, why would the ProPlan be better over the other two? Are they looking for less protein to the same amount of fat?

brookcove

Posted : 4/19/2007 10:04:40 PM

I think what he'll need is not higher fat/protein but the carbs in ProPlan and foods like it. Like kennel_keeper said, grain free diets don't seem to work well to keep weight on really hard-running dogs. Yes, it's the natural way, but in the wild, canids are not forced to exert themselves beyond what it takes to catch their food. Grains also provide extra sources of antioxidants that meat just doesn't have.

The only way to really tell whether you have a genuine deficiency is to continue to work your dog. If his performance does seem to be falling short, or if he does seem to be losing condition, it's time to revisit his diet. Untiil then you are just shooting in the dark.

Many people with show or performance dogs like to use Satin Balls to add some condition to their dogs just before an event - this way you don't have to change foods, just add a bit of the Satin Ball recipe to his meals about a week before an event. Satin Balls is fairly grain heavy but it's also balanced and very easy to digest. And you don't have to worry about exposing your dog to new foods while you try to find something that's right for him - especially right now when it seems like there's a new recall every day!

NikoAwesomo

Posted : 4/19/2007 10:37:47 PM

I don't know a lot about performance dog but I was wondering if a suggestion a breeder gave my uncle would help.

Here is the suggestion (again, only a suggestion),
How about adding some cooked rice to the EVO RM (or SG BATM) you are feeding your pet? Rice is quite easy to cook (especially if you have a rice cooker). I also wonder if Japanese rice would be good since it is stickier (starchier?).

Misskiwi67

Posted : 4/19/2007 11:22:48 PM

There was a study done that showed protein higher than 35% actually LOWERED stamina... so I would aim for a protein more along those lines...

papillon806

Posted : 4/20/2007 12:15:53 AM

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

There was a study done that showed protein higher than 35% actually LOWERED stamina... so I would aim for a protein more along those lines...

I have seen this too. For dogs that need endurance, they need a significant amount of carbohyrates. Too much protein can pose a problem when it comes to dehydration when they are doing high amounts of work and are unable to maintain the proper fluid balance.

dogslyfe

Posted : 4/20/2007 8:43:04 AM

I'm with Becca and Renee. I'm all for the grain free foods and whatnot, but my hardest keeper loses condition *very* quickly on them. The scary part is she doesn't even get worked every day... more like once, maybe twice weekly. I can only imagine how interesting it will be when she's able to work daily. Anyway, the only thing I've found that really helps for her is foods with grains, that pack a decent *fat* content punch as well. I'm not above using a food with corn in it as well for dogs like June.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/20/2007 9:13:36 AM

most of that protein in Purina performance is from corn gluten-- your dog can't really use it since it's an incomplete protein.

Dogs who do sprinting work (coursing, agility, herding) need carbs for those fast bursts of energy. Dogs who do endurance work (sledding) need lots of fat. Couch potato dogs don't need carbs or much fat in their diets

I'd suggest just adding well-cooked sweet potato, oatmeal, or rice to his diet. Many agility people feed their dogs glucose-laden "energy bars" inbetween runs to rapidly replenish their muscle glycogen.

Xerxes

Posted : 4/20/2007 10:38:18 AM

Thanks everyone. I think what I'm looking at is to supplement rather than totally change his diet. I still want to put a couple of pounds on him though. If he's at too hard of a running condition, he won't be able to course effectively for more than two or three runs.

What my options are, as far as supplementation is Satin Balls, Oatmeal, or Rice.

What are Satin Balls? Are they available commercially? Do I make them myself?

What type of oatmeal? The same quaker oatmeal I eat? Should I give it to him as a porridge?

Rice-brown or white? How much to add to the food? 1/3 cup daily or more or less?

Sorry I'm so plebian here, I just don't know enough about this stuff. But I'm learning, so that's a start![

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brookcove

Posted : 4/20/2007 10:49:34 AM

You make the Satin Balls. I forgot to mention that you just google the recipe. I like it because it's balanced so you don't have to worry about throwing off his nutrient requirements during times of physical stress. It ends up looking like raw meatloaf mix, which you can freeze in portions (I use muffin tins) and then bag up and feed out portions as needed.

Cooked oatmeal and barley was, and still is, a staple of the diet of working Border Collies. No more than a third of his diet - add a tablespoon of blackstrap molasses and an egg with shell (whirl in the blender) - if you do it while it's still hot it will partially cook the white and make more biotin available to your dog.

I've only used brown rice a couple times but I do the same with it as the grains. None of my gang tolerates rice well for some reason.

Xerxes

Posted : 4/20/2007 10:58:40 AM

Thanks Becca, that makes alot more sense now![

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mudpuppy

Posted : 4/20/2007 11:02:40 AM

he looks great in those pics.
How come some of the dogs run in "colors" and muzzles? I thought when lure coursing only one dog was on course at a time?

Xerxes

Posted : 4/20/2007 11:12:54 AM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

he looks great in those pics.
How come some of the dogs run in "colors" and muzzles? I thought when lure coursing only one dog was on course at a time?

Singles are run only for JC testing.

When competing for SC and above the dogs will run in pairs or trios. Since, of course, it's pretty difficult from a distance to tell certain dogs apart, they wear the "blankets." And the muzzles are on just in case- PHs can be incredibly drivey and two or three dogs being prey driven together could pose a significant danger. (These dogs are capable of the "running fight" which is just plain nasty.)

Alot of people will run them in blankets and muzzle for JC tests just to get them used to the weight and balance, also some of the coursing organizations may have rules requiring the use of those items during any run. I'm still a newbie so I am learning as I go along.[

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ETA: I forgot to say thanks for the compliment. I've always liked him in hard, lean condition-but when I'm told he needs more weight and more bulk, that's what I'm going for.