Too extreme with food choices

Personally, I like all the info out there.  It allows me to make an informed decision.  The body, be it canine or human is a complex thing.  I see nothing wrong with taking an interest in your dog's health, weight, the disgestablility of certain foods, etc. 

Just a thought--I hear lots of "dogs in the good old days" arguments, but does anyone actually have any proof that our dogs are living shorter lives then dogs fed scraps on the farm?  I know that both horses and humans are living longer now then they have in the past.....

Just a thought--I hear lots of "dogs in the good old days" arguments, but does anyone actually have any proof that our dogs are living shorter lives then dogs fed scraps on the farm? 

 
As a person that just mentioned dogs in our past ( in the good old days ) I don't necessarily think they are living shorter lives now...although I never thought of that...but I don't know that they are living any longer or better now with all that "we know" about nutrition for them. Just reading our forums,,, with all the issues so many of us talk about. Geez,,,allergies alone.... that topic is always filled with conversation.
I agree with you Sillysally, I also see nothing wrong with taking an interest in your dogs health, weight etc etc...I think Lori was talking more of being a little neurotic about it though.

I think Sally is more comfortable for what I know about foods.  She was not (as far as I can tell) raised in a clean enviroment being bathed all the time--in fact, we're pretty sure she was an outside dog before we got her (she was not house trained at a year old, didn't seem to know what to do in a house, was afraid of the leash, know no commands, and she blew her coat as a couple of weeks after we brought her inside), and she has allergies.  She came to us with itchy flaky skin, and we soon discovered she had issues with wheat and she seems prone to things like that, because she seems to have an intolerance to chicken.

My personal opinion is that this has more to do with breeding than enviroment (nearly every pit bull I've met has some sort of skin issues and have read that bad breeding has caused allergies in many pits), but she is more comfortable because I have this knowledge. 

I think that most dogs don't really have all that many food related problems.  Why do you see so many with such issues on here?  Well, because this is a forum on nutricion.  It is logical that people will discuss their dogs that have food issues in this spot.  Plus, if you notice it tends to be the same people in the discussions, which can also make it seem like there are more issues then their actually are.

I was just curious if anyone had any data on dog life spans.  I know horses are living longer and being useful longer, so it would be logical that dogs would be experiencing the same thing.

I have never seen any proven data on how much longer or shorter dogs live today, but i would expect it would be longer for a number of reasons.   I know my dad's pointers and setters all lived long, healthy active lives for the most part.  But nothing can be done when dogs come down with distemper despite having had vax. be9ing poisoned, etc.  My dad took them in for serious injuiries, but we took care of barbed wire cuts, some which probably should have been stitched--and other what we consideered minor injuires.  I would be rushing mine in today for such injuires. 
 
Many of our friends,  neighbors, family NEVER took their dog to the vet for anything--cuts, fights, hit by car, etc, much less for distemper vax, wellness checks, etc.  Once a year rabies were given at the school with the ag boys doing it, and it was $1 a shot and most took their dogs there for rabies vax, but that was about as close to a vet as their dogs ever came (vet was in charge) 
 
Dogs got lame with HD or knee problems, they were put down one way or another. Dogs went deaf or blind--they were put down one way or another.
 
Back then there was no such thing as wellness checks.  Dogs were not on thyroid meds, blood pressure meds, meds for epilepsy, ec, etc, etc.  And these things killed many dogs i am sure.  My Buck has been on thyroid meds for 2 years and started on blood pressure meds this wee, but we think he may not be on them long.  He gets a physical and total blood panel done at least every 9 months, which was unheard of 40 years ago.
 
People bought over the counter de-wormer, which i believe was about like giving an dose of sugar for all the good it did.  They didn't take poop samples to their vet and have it checked for the various worms.  Hooks can bring down a dog in  now time with a heavy infestation.
 
Dogs did not get joint sups when arthritis hit them, and when they got to bad, they were shot or dumped or allowed to just suffer and finally die. Nothing 3was known of heartworms and i am sure they didn't suddenly just appear 35 years ago.  We had never heard of parvo, lyme, Lepto, and all those other things they know about today.
 
So, it makes sense to me that dogs should live a LOT longer today.  They get more and better medical treatment, people fork out lots of money for hip and knee surgery, heart worm treatment, bladder stone removal and all  kinds of other surgeries, chemo is done today where it wasn't not so long ago, people are willing to pay to have complete physicals and testing done, they are willing to spend the money for needed meds, etc.  More dogs today are staying in the house out of bad weather (in my growing up years i knew ONE house that had a dog inside, a Peke)  I really don't think this super premium food is really adding years to lives today.  I think it is the better general care overall that is doing it....timely vet visits, preventative stuff (tho i realy believe that is being over done). meds for different illnesses and medical problems, etc.....if they are actuallly living longer. 

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I think that most dogs don't really have all that many food related problems.  Why do you see so many with such issues on here?  Well, because this is a forum on nutricion.  It is logical that people will discuss their dogs that have food issues in this spot.  Plus, if you notice it tends to be the same people in the discussions, which can also make it seem like there are more issues then their actually are.

 
completely agree with this - food allergies are actually quite rare and will appear to be much more common than they are on an internet dog nutrition forum. 
 
I really don't know if dogs were healthier back in the "old days" as I wasn't around back then, but I do know that the pet food industry didn't have the same influence on our pet's nutrition like it does today.  People used their common sense and fed their dogs mostly meat and bones, and now we have pet food companies telling us and the veterinary community that we should be feeding dogs mostly grains.  That is why it is even more important for me to care enough to do my own research regarding what is the healthiest diet for my dog.

Actully, dogs didn't get that much meat, at least none we knew.  They got left overs and meat was not tossed, but kept for another meal.  Dogs would get the left over mashed potatoes, corn, green beans, bones, cornbread, maybe some fat scraps, a few pinto beans,a tad of left over gravy..  With our large family of 5 kids, we didn't have left overs, or very little and Mom saved them for her lunch the next day.  maybe this is where the idea of corn and  veggies in commercial dog food came from.

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

I have never seen any proven data on how much longer or shorter dogs live today, but i would expect it would be longer for a number of reasons.   I know my dad's pointers and setters all lived long, healthy active lives for the most part.  But nothing can be done when dogs come down with distemper despite having had vax. be9ing poisoned, etc.  My dad took them in for serious injuiries, but we took care of barbed wire cuts, some which probably should have been stitched--and other what we consideered minor injuires.  I would be rushing mine in today for such injuires. 

Many of our friends,  neighbors, family NEVER took their dog to the vet for anything--cuts, fights, hit by car, etc, much less for distemper vax, wellness checks, etc.  Once a year rabies were given at the school with the ag boys doing it, and it was $1 a shot and most took their dogs there for rabies vax, but that was about as close to a vet as their dogs ever came (vet was in charge) 

Dogs got lame with HD or knee problems, they were put down one way or another. Dogs went deaf or blind--they were put down one way or another.

Back then there was no such thing as wellness checks.  Dogs were not on thyroid meds, blood pressure meds, meds for epilepsy, ec, etc, etc.  And these things killed many dogs i am sure.  My Buck has been on thyroid meds for 2 years and started on blood pressure meds this wee, but we think he may not be on them long.  He gets a physical and total blood panel done at least every 9 months, which was unheard of 40 years ago.

People bought over the counter de-wormer, which i believe was about like giving an dose of sugar for all the good it did.  They didn't take poop samples to their vet and have it checked for the various worms.  Hooks can bring down a dog in  now time with a heavy infestation.

Dogs did not get joint sups when arthritis hit them, and when they got to bad, they were shot or dumped or allowed to just suffer and finally die. Nothing 3was known of heartworms and i am sure they didn't suddenly just appear 35 years ago.  We had never heard of parvo, lyme, Lepto, and all those other things they know about today.

So, it makes sense to me that dogs should live a LOT longer today.  They get more and better medical treatment, people fork out lots of money for hip and knee surgery, heart worm treatment, bladder stone removal and all  kinds of other surgeries, chemo is done today where it wasn't not so long ago, people are willing to pay to have complete physicals and testing done, they are willing to spend the money for needed meds, etc.  More dogs today are staying in the house out of bad weather (in my growing up years i knew ONE house that had a dog inside, a Peke)  I really don't think this super premium food is really adding years to lives today.  I think it is the better general care overall that is doing it....timely vet visits, preventative stuff (tho i realy believe that is being over done). meds for different illnesses and medical problems, etc.....if they are actuallly living longer. 

How can you really KNOW that food is not helping?  Human health experts (I mention humans because so much more research has been done on human nutricion then dogs, plus it's hard to find neutrel parties researching dog nutricion) will tell you that food makes a HUGE difference in health.  I have never heard any explaination as to why this would be so vastly different for dogs.

I don't know and neither does anyone else...one way or the other. I have never seen anything that said that dogs are living longer lives today...or shorter.  BUT with the so much better medical care and the super premium foods, dogs SHOULD be living a lot longer and I have not seen evidence or proof of it.

I can only go by dogs I have known thru my 50 years of owning dogs, seeing other dogs all those years.  There was no special diets for dogs with gastric problems, joint problems, allergies to certain things, etc.  The foods designed for these problems should cause these dogs to live longer than they would have 40 years ago.  Maybe then gastric dogs would have died at 5 and today they are living to be 12 because of special food.  But i think a healthy dog that lives to 12 today would have done so back then, and possibily longer due to not so many vaccines and other poisons, maybe shorter because of contacting one of the diseases.

And it is possible that if the dogs got the vet care back then that they get today, and still ate the way they did, they could have lived even longer.  Humans are liv9ing longer today and eating much less healthy.  Why"  There are meds for all diseases to keep them alive, heart, kidney, liver, etc transplants.  There are pace makers, by pass surgery, chemo, etc, all kinds that of things to keep peoole alive that was not around, or very rare back then.  Food is not helping people live longer today, in fact is probably cutting life shorter, it is the medical field that is keeping people around longer.  So i figure the same with dogs and cats.
 
EDITED Back then it was unheard of to give supplements to dogs and today so many of us, including myself, do.  We do this to "make sure" or for special reasons like to help with dry skin, to bring out shine in coat, to help with allergies, etc.

I think that most dogs don't really have all that many food related problems.  Why do you see so many with such issues on here?  Well, because this is a forum on nutricion.  It is logical that people will discuss their dogs that have food issues in this spot.  Plus, if you notice it tends to be the same people in the discussions, which can also make it seem like there are more issues then their actually are.

I agree totally on the fact that there are few dogs with food related problem.  
But this forum is not nutrition...of course this part of it is...but read the general my dog is sick threads...and the allergy threads.   OR come to the vet clinic where I work.  There are so many dogs coming in with skin problems that it makes me sick.  I truely don't feel that it has anything to do with food for the most part,,,I have been "harping" that for years. I do think though that over vaccinations and all the chemicals we pour into our pets have a lot to do with it.  But I agree with Sandra,,,

BUT with the so much better medical care and the super premium foods, dogs SHOULD be living a lot longer and I have not seen evidence or proof of it.

I don't think I lived where you guys lived years ago... because we DID give human food...but not as their meals...they got dog food..and there wasnt such  a thing as premium back then either. It was
"go down to the grocery store and pick up a bag or can of dog food, will ya!"  The human food came in the form of left overs....scraps from off the plate....

Whew--the thread of huge proportions--I think just about every topic has been covered here! Just wanted to add my two cents--the majority of vets won't recommend anything that hasn't been "scientifically proven" in studies and this includes feeding raw or homemade diets. It's just the nature of the medical profession (human and animal).
 
Unfortunately no one has ponied up enough dough to do any studies that significantly show any benefits to feeding non-commerical diets. (I'm not saying they don't exist!) Some of the larger pet food companies have enough money to fund their own studies but of course no one is going to show the benefits of home cooking!
 
I also agree that everything needs to be done in moderation--vaccines especially. There's definitely a fine line there. Too many times I've been the last face a puppy dying of parvo has seen. But I think there are definitely benefits to vaccinating older pets less often.
 
There was something else that I wanted to say--but this thread is so long--I've forgotten what it was!

Actully, dogs didn't get that much meat, at least none we knew. They got left overs and meat was not tossed, but kept for another meal.

Were your dogs allowed to roam?  If they were, then they probably got all the rats, squirrels, rabbits, etc. that they could catch.

Were your dogs allowed to roam? If they were, then they probably got all the rats, squirrels, rabbits, etc. that they could catch.

 
NOOOO.  They were setters and pointers, bird dogs, at risk for being stollen if roaming.  Besides, we didn't take chances on them getting hit by cars, tho cars were scarce on our little dirt road.  When we wanted to use them as horses for the radio flyer wagon, or pack horses, etc, there were loose with us which actually was lot of the time.  Also, you can't have bird dogs killing.  ours brought back dead and wounded quail without a mark on them.  Daddy had nice large pen with dog houses full of hay in winter.  Was shaded in summer.
 
on a side note, out hunting they would jump a cotton tail and it might as well have been a butterflie or tumble week.  let them jump a jack rabbit and the chase was one.  never did know what it was about jack rabbits unless it was the chase itself as they are so fast.

well, I kind of agree and kind of disagree. People in general do a really lousy job of feeding themselves and their kids nutritionally balanced diets. Most diseases of middle age/old age in humans (and probably in canines) are caused, at least in part, by poor nutrition and lack of exercise. 
But I'm pretty relaxed about preparing meals for myself and for the dogs. A few general principles to follow-- balance meat with a reasonable amount of bone (or calcium) and organs and you're good to go. Biological organisms are pretty robust and don't need to eat "perfectly balanced" meals every meal.
Fresh and variety is more important than perfect balance.

 
I love this post...If My husband would read this he would say AMEN!!! And tell me to get a life...  My life revolves around.....
  
POOP or their food. I find a food they love and they have soft stools[:'(] I find a food they don't much care for and they have normal stools. I have one on a hunger strike cause she wants the old food that gave her soft poops!!
 
As me if Im feeling CRAZY over here!!![8D]

Terrierlover, I'm right with you, hahaha.   I have a 12 year old that can't tolerate beef, a 2 year old lactating female that can't tolerate lamb, 5 puppies that are 7 weeks old and weigh 1.5 lbs each, and 2 normal healthy adults. 
Now I've decided to homecook- I must be insane.  I've been staying up late at night putting nutrient amounts into spreadsheets trying to get the optimal amount of nutrients (I'm using the 2006 NRC requirements) without excess and in the correct ratios. 
It sounds hard and doing it is even harder.  And I am trying to formulate these recipes without the use of  mineral supplements (except calcium- I have that) because I ordered them online and they're not here yet and I want a diet I can feed to my girl right now...I FINALLY got my lactation diet done.  Oh, the strange things I had to ut into that recipe to meet her requirements- bison, salmon, liver, oysters, sesame seeds, parsley, iron fortified baby rice ceral, dulce granules...
I'm just lucky she actually ate it!! 
Now I have to formulate a diet for the puppies- their protein requirement is SO high and their stomachs are SO small.  I had to order powdered whole eggs and powdered yolks online because I just can't find another way to meet those requirements with fresh foods- too much volume for them to eat enough to meet their requirements.
The maintenance diet is easy...But the difference between the three diets is HUGE.  I just cannot imagine one kibble serving all of these nutritional needs- no way. 
And when I am done with formulating these recipes I'll know for sure all of my dogs are eating balanced diets and I'll know exactly what went into those diets, how they were processed, etc etc.  It's all worth it to me.  Extreme?  Maybe, but I am extremely in love with my dogs