Too extreme with food choices

I asked my vet yesterday about giving raw chicken necks, wings etc and he almost fell over that i would ask such a question.  he said no way would he ever recommend raw bones--have operated on to many with punctured stomaches, throats, etc, seen to many die. 
 
I know about distemper.  I lost my very first dog to it.  Got her, an English Setter I named Beauty, in june '46 for my 11th birthday.  She died that Nov. at 8 months from distemper, despite having had shots.
 
i lost another English Setter, Rascal, from it before he was 4, depsite having had shots.  None of our other 3 hunting dogs got it from him.  In those days they got rabies and distempe, only many country folks didn't vaccinate against distemper, just law required rabies.  We always did our dogs against distemper also.

I think i would fall over if i heard of a dog dying or getting punctured stomachs,throats from chicken necks,which are mostly sinewy cartlidge .There is a very,very slight possibility,almost negligible that something could happen with a large wing,again never heard of anything....but necks??!! No way!

I've heard of many of the above mentioned complications from Cooked,splintery hard bones but i cant seem to find any such info on raw  bones...

Altho we didn't have scraps for our dogs, they did get left over bones--cooked bones--chicken, pork chop, duck, quaill, squirrel, rabbit, dove, steak, and we never had a problem with any of them. But then 5 years ago i sw that lab puppy with the punctures stomach and he died..and that put the fear in me.  And just recently I was reminded of my neighbor's dog that died.  It was fine that morning and in the afternoon didn't respond to anything  and had blood coming from rear.  They rushed it to the emergency vet (we had just come from there with our irish setter--fish hook in tongue) but it died on the way.  They didn't do x-rays but the ER vet felt the dog had either gotten some glass or a bone and it had splintered.  There is no proof one way or the other about that incidnt that happened 15 years ago.  Lil reminded me of it the other day.

hey lori you somehow jumped in my brain and stole my idea!  except i was going to title mine:  "are we overthinking this"...
 
glad to know i'm not the only one.

I think i would fall over if i heard of a dog dying or getting punctured stomachs,throats from chicken necks,which are mostly sinewy cartlidge .There is a very,very slight possibility,almost negligible that something could happen with a large wing,again never heard of anything....but necks??!! No way!

I've heard of many of the above mentioned complications from Cooked,splintery hard bones but i cant seem to find any such info on raw bones...

 
I doubt every vet that encounters such things records it on the internet for you to find.  I'm sure you can be open minded enough to at least give us that some dogs do not chew well, have weaker immune systems, etc. that it's not a responsible choice for every dog.  It's not that those who choose it are making a bad choice for their dog.  It's just not a good choice for all dogs. 
 

hey lori you somehow jumped in my brain and stole my idea!  except i was going to title mine:  "are we overthinking this"... glad to know i'm not the only one. 

 
That would of been a better title! 
 
I'm actually surprised that so many people feel this way.  I more expected to have people debating that "overthinking" was necessary. 
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I'm actually surprised that so many people feel this way.  I more expected to have people debating that "overthinking" was necessary. 

 
Me too Lori!
I have always felt this way when people on this forum dissect an ingredient list from dog food.  Its almost comical!
 
 

my vet told me about it and said that he wouldn't use it on any dogs until more than a million had already tried it [sm=happy.gif]

I too am surprised....pleasantly so.  When I saw this thread yesterday I had unpleasant visions of lots and lots of red ink.[]
 
I think that the American public in general is doing a pretty crappy job of nourishing themselves, their kids and their pets.  But, our entire society has changed from when I was a kid.  We didnt' hang out and watch TV all day, or play video games or on the computer.....we didn't have those things, save the TV, and BOARD games were for evenings and usually with the family.  We played outside in the fresh air and sunshine.  But, lots of Moms aren't home these days, lots of predators are out there and lots of bad people in general so yeah, maybe kids are less active, but theres kind of a reason.
 
But, then lets take a look at the diet of the "good old days".......each meal had to contain a meat, veggie, starch (usually potatoes in one form or another), a bread or rolls AND dessert.  And meat dominated the plate.  We didn't eat much chicken in my house since Dad grew up on a farm and every Sunday Grandma would go out to the chicken coop and "find" dinner.  The chickens and the pigs on that farm got lots of stuff that grosses ME out.....like the dishwater since you wouldn't want to waste that......But, our meals were BIG and quite heavy.  We ate fish, we ate pheasant, we ate venison.....Dad grew up on a farm and they supplemented their diet from the woods and streams.  Casseroles normally came at the tail end of the pay period when Mom felt the need to stretch out the groceries a bit..  Maybe NOW folks are noticing fat kids more, but by golly there sure were plenty of chunky kids back in those days too......I was looking at my school photos from grade school...the ones where the entire class is together and I could pick out far more chunky kids than thin ones......because skinny wasn't considered HEALTHY back then, no matter how much exercise we got.
 
OK, so trying to return my train of thought to the actual topic......I think that when I first started learning about animal nutrition I was a bit like a born again Christian in my zeal to share the good news with everyone.  I don't think that's unusual at all.  And when people couldn't accept the GOOD NEWS, I tended to get annoyed and think that they were just dumb or stubborn.  I really believe in Innova.....but, I began to wonder if my dogs really NEEDED all the ingredients in Innova....after all, they get the fruit, etc, in their homecooked, so maybe not so much.
 
I think often its fear of messing up and not doing right by our animals that leads us to get over zealous with the whole feeding issue.  As I've relaxed a bit, and been open to trying new things, I've found other foods that work well for my crew, beyond Innova and I think it's nice for them to rotate...there is always a chance that ONE food doesn't truely have all they need and by rotating I up their chances of staying healthy.
 
I've reached the point now, in my evolution, that I will share what foods work for my dogs, and the ones that didn't, but I'll also say WHY I didn't like food X and point out that just because it gave MY dogs horse sized stool, doesn't mean that it won't work for YOUR dog.  I think I had come to equate enormous stool with crap in the food.  Clearly with TWO this isn't the case, but they sure deposit a lot of it from the other end.  But, that doesn't mean that EVERYONES dog is going to do that.....just mine.  And some folks might not MIND a somewhat larger stool....but, because I have SIX large dogs, oh yeah, I do.
 
Good job you guys, keeping this thread PG!

I think nutrition does count. My dogs have all done better on home cooked and I try to come up with a healthy balanced diet, without obsessing over it. But by Friday night, I'm tired and usually out of something that goes into their food, so they get kibble & canned while I take a bubble bath. They love it. Something different. And....every once in a while they get an In and Out burger or a little ice cream. Perhaps because of years of diet diversity, they don't get upset tummies. Heck, Wolfgang stole an entire roast beef and was merely comfortably full. LOL!
 
That said, I think it is more of a challenge to feed small dogs correctly and especially small puppies. I'd be more detail oriented in those situations.

I do obsess quite a bit over my challenged dog but part of it comes from seeing what a HUGE difference simple diet changes made in his life. Even my vet is a believer now.

But on the other hand I've also seen what overthinking and being inflexible can do - I struggled for so long with keeping weight on my dogs within strict guidelines. Then I gave up and realized the important thing was making sure the food was healthy and as much fresh as possible made up their diets. I'm still getting good results and I can put the money and time I save into rescuing and training.

Glenda, I glanced thru my old year book and we didn't have many chunky kids in my little school.  When i walk around in Walmart and probably 6 out of every 10 kids is over weight i want to tell them to get out and play outside, ride bikes, play chase, play cowboys and indians, play army, play baseball, soccer, football, all the things we did as kids and the things my sons did. Get away from the computer games, the nintendo games, etc.
 
Every time I am on the gambling boat, 2 or 3 nights a week, i find myself looking at HUGE people who can't even walk up the ganglank, but are pushed up in wheelchairs , and thinking 'I hope if the boat sinks they aren't in my life boat.'  I am not talking about 1 or 2 out of 200 people, i am talking 10-15 that are well over 300 pounds.  And then there are ones who are real heavy, but can get up the gangplank.  One time thry brought a wheel chair in for this fat woman and she couldn't even fit in it, had to go get an extra wide one that 3 or 3 normal size people could have fit in.
 
I know that in some cases there is medical cause for these people being so large and i truly feel for them.  however, as we sit in the dining room eating buffet, it is clear that some are that way because they EAT EAT EAT. They will fill their plaes 3-4 times.  And it seems the stuff they like to eat is like the pasta salads, mashed potatoes and gravy, rice with gravy, BBq ribs, dessert, dessert, dessert.  I don't they have any concept of balanced meals.Eat the tossed salad with jut a little dressing, the veggie salad, the fruit, the baked fish, the cooked veggies, one piece of dessert, etc. 
 
i never studied dog nutrition of any kind, but did human nutrition.  I never went overboard with what i fed my family as far as measuring things to the 1/4 teaspoon of X each day.  And don't do it with my dogs.  I believe  the Purina One is well balanced for them, and the chicken stew, fish, yogurt, etc, is just bonus. And they do love it.  As i type i h ave a 6 quart crock pot going--the usual chicken thighs, chicken gizzards this week for 2ed meat, green beans (frozen) 2 large sweet potatoes, one apple and 3 good size yellow squash, and boy does it smell good.

 But, that doesn't mean that EVERYONES dog is going to do that.....just mine.  And some folks might not MIND a somewhat larger stool....but, because I have SIX large dogs, oh yeah, I do.

 
You know,,,eventually food conversations turn to stool conversations either large or small, soft or hard.     Its weird to me,,,because other than soft runny cases of diarrhea, I wouldn't be concerned about their stool.  To me diarrhea means sick.   But our Danes have large stools....Bubby has only ONE a day,,,Ollie used to do at least two. I mean LARGE--your talking Great Dane size here...lol!
But Ollie used to have soft stools and many of them, on whatever food he was eating before Eagle Pack. THAT was not right. I used to tell his Dad,,,he is putting out more than he is eating.  But other then that,,,I don't judge a food by stools,,,its not a concern of mine either. I think general heath and their coats tell me if their food is doing them justice.
  

Of course with large dogs you have to expect large stools.  Larger than normal stools mean either there is too much water in the stool or the food isn't being efficiently absorbed.  Either reason means the food is not working with the dog's digestive system and it's time to look for other options. 

Larger than normal stools mean either there is too much water in the stool or the food isn't being efficiently absorbed. 

 
While I'm sure there is an element of truth to this....what is normal???  And who is to decide? If there was too much water in the stool,,,wouldn't it be soft rather than hard?  If it wasn't being absorbed,,,would it not be coming out as fast as its going in,,,such as when we are sick with dirrahea?  

I had never thought about  the size of my dog's poop until I came here 3 `1/2 years ago....actually i don't remember to muich about poop being talked about even then.  Mine go twice a day and Buck's are the largest.  i sometimes have trouble locating the girls if i am not real close, just know the general area.  I have worried they were not pooping enough becuase they are so small.  But still, that does not come into the picture with my choice of food.  If it was runny, yes, it would, but normal consistency, it plays no part.  I go by their looks, their coat, their activity, their ears and eyes, and by their physicals. I have mentioned this beore--my youngest son is healthy as a horse and he will go 2-3 times a day and his expression is 'fill the pot".  His wife only goes once every 2-4 days.(she hates for him to tell this) 
 
So nope, as long as they do their business twice a day and it is normal, I don't fret the "small stuff.'