Raw Diet for Puppy

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
    It's simply not true that puppies have special or different nutritional needs than adult dogs. Many of the so-called adult foods on the market are nutritionally inadequate and would kill a puppy, true, but these foods are also no good for adult dogs.


    As a great dane breeder/owner, you should know better than anyone that puppies have different needs, since giant breeds are the best examples of this, and more prone to developing problems when something is a little off.

    Too much calcium and the bones grow too fast, puppies DO NOT limit the amount of calcium they absorb until they are 6 months old. This alone should be cause for concern (as well as a poignant example of just how different puppies are), because most BARF diets hugely oversupplement with bone, and are therefore not appropriate for puppies.

    Too little calcium and your puppy will have nutritional hyperparathyroidism, a disease even more serious and crippling than the diseases caused by too much calcium.

    Here is a quote from the conference proceedings Nutrition, Prevention and Treatment of Disease in Dogs and Cats ACVIM 2003
    ORTHOPEDIC DISORDERS The developmental orthopedic disorders (DOD), disorders in maturation of osteochonral cartilage, are the orthopedic disorders most associated with nutritional causes and treatments. The key to preventing and treating developmental orthopedic disorders through dietary intervention seems to be, first and foremost, avoidance of excesses in diet and gross imbalances in nutrients. Certainly instances of secondary hyperparathyroidism from gross imbalances in calcium and phosphorus exist, but such cases generally occur in animals on home-prepared, meat-based formulas with the calcium and phosphorus content of the diet not appropriately assessed and balanced. Within the group of DOD the one given the most objective scientific scrutiny has been hip dysplasia (HD). Kealy et al. in 1992 published results demonstrating the number of dogs determined to develop HD by 2 years of age could be significantly decreased by feeding 25% less food to Labrador retriever puppies with a genetic predisposition to HD than paired littermates consumed ad libitum.7 Continuation of a 25% restriction in amount of diet through 5, and then 8, years of age was demonstrated to decrease the development and/or severity of radiographic signs of osteoarthritic changes to the coxofemoral, stifle, shoulder and elbow, joints in these pair fed dogs.8,9 Thus, as with the renal studies above, diet can be concluded to have an effect on the incidence of HD and subsequent development of osteoarthritis, but the specific nutrient(s) responsible cannot be determined from the studies by Kealy et al. Some commercial formulas have adjusted the energy density, macro- and micro mineral content of growth products marketed for large and giant breeds to guard against excesses, but the basis for these adjustments rests in extrapolation from other studies and theory rather than definitive demonstration of effect on incidence of HD and osteoarthritis. Some evidence has been generated that loss of excess body weight in conjunction with controlled, moderate activity (e.g., leash walking) improves the mobility and comfort of dogs with HD.10,11 However, the cited studies suffer from lack of a clear control group for differentiating between weight loss, activity and placebo effects.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Excellent post.
     
    Now, can we just leave the "difference" "no difference" in nutritional needs be?  I don't want to see more disention in this poor guys thread.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Why are we discussing large breed when the original poster's pup is a beagle? High quality, premium all life stages foods are perfectly suitable for small and medium breed puppies.  "puppy food" is a marketing technique and is the exact opposite diet of what wild pups would eat.  This link explains why and makes a lot of sense to me: 
    [linkhttp://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/do_i_need_to_use_a_puppy_food.htm]http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/do_i_need_to_use_a_puppy_food.htm[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jenns

    Why are we discussing large breed when the original poster's pup is a beagle? High quality, premium all life stages foods are perfectly suitable for small and medium breed puppies.  "puppy food" is a marketing technique and is the exact opposite diet of what wild pups would eat.  This link explains why and makes a lot of sense to me: 
    [linkhttp://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/do_i_need_to_use_a_puppy_food.htm]http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/do_i_need_to_use_a_puppy_food.htm[/link]


    First, we're discussing a raw diet. And second, that looks like one persons self-made line of reasoning and has very little to back it up (one of many personal pet peeves with thegreatdanelady). The reason we know more about large breeds is because they make the best study subjects. Just because the puppy is a small breed does not mean it is not subject to the same problems and inbalances that afflict large breeds.

    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults. Its just another marketing scheme, but apparently nobody notices or seems to care because its a super premium, they aren't like the big companies...
    • Gold Top Dog
    OK, I think this thread needs to go to it's crate to settle for a bit.  I'll unlock it and we can try again later on.  The OP's question has been answered, he's made a decision and we've all stated opinions.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I've reopened this thread.  Let's please stay ON topic and remain civil in our responses so I don't need to lock it back up.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults.

    Misskiwi67, I have read this sentence several times and I still don't understand it.  Would you please explain?
    • Gold Top Dog
    New2puppies - I am glad it looks like you decided to follow my path.  I would however sxchange that EVO dry for Innova Puppy. I agree with Mudpuppy, I am worried it is too much calcium.
     
    I had a conversation with the clerk at my organic dogstore and she was unaware that EVO dry is not for large breed pups and you have to wait til most dogs are older.. And she was disagreeing with my knowledge I learned here.  The owner came to the register and said YES YOU (me) ARE RIGHT. You dont want those bones to grow too fast.
     
    Since LOla is 12 months at 50 pounds (large breed), I was thinking about introducing EVO dry to her, but I got scared and went with plain Innova adult for at least 6 more months interchanging with NV raw or mostly raw.
     
    But, yes, EVO dry is touted as the next best thing to raw..   
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have my concerns about EVO for any size pup myself.  With large breed pups they changed from no to yes to no to whatever so many times my head was swimming.  Great product, but I'm still waiting for all of my crew to be over two years old AND fully grown to start them on it.
     
    I'm not going to say that you CAN'T successfully raw feed a pup, lots of folks do just that, BUT I wouldn't start raw feeding for the very first time, with a pup.  JMHO.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults.


    My understanding of Misskiwi's statement was this:

    The "super premiums" are often called "adult food for puppies" because they are targetting adult dogs as the primary consumers and therefore are "adult foods," but also claim to be suitable for puppies. Misskiwi is arguing that they are instead using formulas that might in other circumstances be called "puppy food" (fitting the nutritional requirements of puppies, such as higher protein) but are being called "adult dog food" instead.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cita

    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults.


    My understanding of Misskiwi's statement was this:

    The "super premiums" are often called "adult food for puppies" because they are targetting adult dogs as the primary consumers and therefore are "adult foods," but also claim to be suitable for puppies. Misskiwi is arguing that they are instead using formulas that might in other circumstances be called "puppy food" (fitting the nutritional requirements of puppies, such as higher protein) but are being called "adult dog food" instead.


     
    Hmm...I don't exactly see where the all life stages foods have higher protein.  Natural Balance and Canidae all life stages have 23% and 24% protein.  If you take a look at a non "super premium" food, like Purina ONE, the adult food has 26% protein (mostly from non animal sources but that's another topic) and the puppy food has 28%.  Royal Canin for medium adult dogs has 25% protein and puppies is 32%.  The all life stages foods don't look *at all* like ;puppy food to me.  The protein levels look like middle of the road levels for adult dog food.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Could I suggest that we move this discussion to a new thread?  Interesting as this conversation is, it has only the barest whisper of a relationship to the original topic..............
    • Gold Top Dog
    You should also maybe take a look at ian Billinghursts book "grow your pup with bones".It is a puppy raw feeding book.

    And Misskiwi i went and had a look at the pic in your avatar,and if you dont mind me saying,you dont look a day over 17 [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Edie

    You should also maybe take a look at ian Billinghursts book "grow your pup with bones".It is a puppy raw feeding book.

    And Misskiwi i went and had a look at the pic in your avatar,and if you dont mind me saying,you dont look a day over 17 [:D]


    Why thank you... especially since I was 22 when I had that photo taken :)
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: janet_rose

    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults.

    Misskiwi67, I have read this sentence several times and I still don't understand it.  Would you please explain?


    Yes, I have a nice article that goes into the details... I will start a new thread...