I need some help

Identifying Better Products:http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

Ingredients to Avoid:http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

And the rest of that site... HTH []

Thanks.  I really appreciate it.  The discussion generated into an argument and she thought I was calling her a "bad person" because of the dog food she was feeding.  This is not the case.  She had asked me about dog food and I gave her my typical schpiel about protein sources and such.  Yikes!
 
 

Don't forget that many pet food manufacturers manipulate the list of ingredients to make it look more appealing to consumers. Just because "beef" or "chicken" is listed first that doesn't mean that's what the majority of the diet contains (which it shouldn't in the first place). Pure meat contains a lot of water so therefore will weigh more than the other ingredients. Some manufacturers also like to split up the grain sources into different names to get the protein source higher up in the list of ingredients.
 
Also, if you think about it, if the diet is properly formulated for the average adult dog and has the proper protein to calorie ratio, the meat source should not be listed first. (an animal protein source should be in the first 3 ingredients listed).
 
The diet must add up to 100% right? According to veterinary nutritionists, the average adult neutered dog only needs about 20% protein, 15% fat, and all the proper vitamins and minerals fit inside 5%. So, what's left? The lower calorie carbohydrate should make up the balance of the diet at 60%. Soooooo, if the diet is formulated properly and the manufacturer isn't trying to play marketing games with consumers, the list should accurately reflect the weight of the ingredients and have a GRAIN as the first ingredient.
 
Personally, if my friend was going to feed her dog SD I wouldn't talk her out of it because there's definitely worse choices out there. []
 
 

I really don't like this site because the author doesn't make their credentials known, but it might help you get the point across:

[linkhttp://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=127&cat=all]http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=127&cat=all[/link]

OTOH, if you have to work with this person, it might be better to drop it [&:]

Thanks. I really appreciate it. The discussion generated into an argument and she thought I was calling her a "bad person" because of the dog food she was feeding. This is not the case.

 
LOL! ED.. sounds like a the nutrition section on idog! All kinds of misunderstandings in that area.
 
Good for you for trying to help educate her! []  

You can soften the blow on someone who gets defensive about their dog food a couple ways. I like to say something like "you should try XXX food. It has really great ingredients and costs the same/less than Science Diet." or "I switched to the food I heard about called XXX and Fluffy did so much better. You should try it too!" Then you can sweeten the deal with details like how much less they poop and shed and how much cheaper it is since you feed less.

Make it sound like you're sharing some great deal rather than dumping on what she feeds now. I've converted a few relatives that way.

Also, if you think about it, if the diet is properly formulated for the average adult dog and has the proper protein to calorie ratio, the meat source should not be listed first. (an animal protein source should be in the first 3 ingredients listed).

The diet must add up to 100% right? According to veterinary nutritionists, the average adult neutered dog only needs about 20% protein, 15% fat, and all the proper vitamins and minerals fit inside 5%. So, what's left? The lower calorie carbohydrate should make up the balance of the diet at 60%. Soooooo, if the diet is formulated properly and the manufacturer isn't trying to play marketing games with consumers, the list should accurately reflect the weight of the ingredients and have a GRAIN as the first ingredient.

 
this is SO wrong. And it's all caused by this stupid use of "%" when talking about dog diets. Dogs need a certain number of grams of protein per day-- they don't need a certain % of the diet to be protein; the protein MUST come from animal sources since veg and grain proteins are incomplete. Dogs need a certain number of calories per day. Dogs don't need ANY carbohydrates per day.
I've posted this before, but I'll do it again. Numbers made up for ease of calculations.
Fido needs 100 grams of meat-protein per day and 1000 calories per day. You feed Fido Brand A which contains 20% protein (let's pretend it's all usable meat-source protein) and has 350 calories per cup. You feed by body weight, so you feed 1000 calories, 2.8 cups. Each cup contains 150 grams of food. So in those 2.8 cups of food there is 420 grams of food, 20% of which is protein, which is 84 grams of protein. Your dog is being starved of protein because of all those calorie-contributing carbohydrates in the food. Over time the lack of protein will seriously adversely affect the health of the dog.
Let's feed Fido Brand B, which contains 30% protein and has 450 calories per cup. You feed by body condition, 1000 calories, which is 2.2 cups. Each cup contains 150 grams of food. So in those 2.2 cups of food there is 330 grams of food, 30% of which is protein, which is only 99 grams of protein! you're still a little short on protein with this so-called high protein food. 1 gram too few per day over the lifetime of the dog can really add up to a significant adverse health impact.
 
Bottom line unless your dog needs a LOT of calories per day you're not going to get enough protein into that dog unless you choose a food with a very high "% protein"  from meat on the label.

Bottom line unless your dog needs a LOT of calories per day you're not going to get enough protein into that dog unless you choose a food with a very high "% protein" from meat on the label.

 
I love this. Makes so much sense. Cherokee needs many fewer calories per day than dog food bags suggest for a 60 pound dog. A food like Pinnacle, which I fed for a few weeks, has 400 calories per cup, and they suggest 5 cups of food per day for a dog Cherokee's size. That's 2000 calories! Cherokee generally needs under 1000. If I cut that down to 2.5 cups per day, she's not getting the nutrition she needs, by the food company's own admission. What am I to do then?? Feed a more nutrient dense food, which basically means these new fangled high-protein, low-carb foods, because she ain't gonna get what she needs from a food that's 60% carbs, and that's just common sense. If your (general "your") 60 lb dog can deal with 2000 calories per day and not look like a blimp, fine, feed whatever, but mine can't.

Whoa let's rein this in for a second here...  Everyone's making good points, really good points.
 
I like the suggestions of using the "hey your food is good, have you thought about using something better?" idea.  I like that alot.
 
I did send her the links that were suggested along with the links to Solid Gold and Inova.  As most of you know I am quite biased in what I feed.  My pet peeve though is the un-interested pet owner that feeds something without having a substantial reason why. 
 
The contributors in this section have humbled me many, many times in their knowledge, their ability to research foods in a manner so thorough that most of them could write dissertations on canine nutrition in the post-modern era. 

Ed- I don't want to be a Gloomy Gus here, but if her attitude is that it's "just a dog" I don't know that she's even going to care about the info you give her. It's A LOT harder, if not impossible to get someone who doesn't care all that much to feed something better. Especially if it requires them to change anything or go out of their way at all. [&:] Of course I could be wrong and it never hurts to at least try.

I guess the thing to stress is that although vets recommend Science Diet, vets are NOT nutritionists and don't have much training in it. Keep things really simple and just mention that dogs are carnivores and although they can live on a corn based diet, they only really thrive on a meat based one. Make sure to say that you don't think she's a bad owner at all, that no one is born knowing about nutrition, etc. Depending on her interest level, you might want to just recommend something midgrade at Petsmart- like Nutro. My top choice would be Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul or Canidae, but like I said before, it's doubtful that she'd go out of her way to get those. Good luck! []

If she thinks "its just a dog" the best approach might be to hint at the benefit to HER.  Gush about the wonders of smaller and less-smelly poops! 

As you can see, it's hard to get a definitive answer with topics like this.  People have different ideas and theories on what is best for a dog's diet.  I disagree with most of what mudpuppy stated, but those ideas are very popular and for the most part in no way bad for a dog's diet.  I just think they are just a little extreme and unrealistic, but certainly not bad advice.  Plus, on top of everything you read here and the good advice you'll get, there are still those who insist Science Diet is good food as well.  []

I disagree with most of what mudpuppy stated, but those ideas are very popular and for the most part in no way bad for a dog's diet.

 
 
it's basic math. How you can you disagree with it?

I appreciate hearing everyone's different views as the only way to make educated choices is to hear all the possibilities and then make your own decisions.

I agree that some veterinarians don't know a lot about nutrition. However, I happen to hold in high regard those few vets that have dedicated both their lives and careers to animal nutrition. These are the ACVN diplomates. Two in particular that have taught me a lot are Dr. Dzanis and Dr. Remillard. (and in case it matters, neither one have anything to do with Science Diet--in fact they both could probably care less about it)

Sorry, but when it comes to feeding my pet I'd trust their advice more than anybody's elses. But that's just me. []

Edit: Forgot to mention it--the source for the information I posted earlier can be found here: [linkhttp://www.petdiets.com]http://www.petdiets.com[/link] Unfortunately the website uses frames so I can't point you directly to the page.