Dog Community

Hypocondriac poodle mix mom with a headache - need some advice

Posted : 3/2/2007 8:37:08 AM

Oh goodness - I've been reading so much my head hurts !!!!

Michelle, my 13 year old cocker spaniel died of a brain tumor in early January.   My life was EMPTY without her (well, not really - but it sure did feel that way) so 8 days after her passing I adopted an 8 month old poodle mix who we named Prancer (you should see her leap !).   Michelle had been on Nuto Max Senior for several years (before that she was on .... Fit N Trim ! yikes - if I knew then what I know now !).
My goal with Prancer is to have her live forever, so I'm paying alot of attention to nutrition. I know I'm being a hypocondriac when it comes to her, and I know that its a reaction to Michelle's crossing the bridge, but the goal is still a good one.
Before I adopted her I started reading on this forum and read about Natural Balance so I got her a bag of their Duck and Potato kibble. I also got a few cans of the Duck and Potato and when I opened it I was astonded at the amount of potato in the food and felt it was just too many "empty calories" in the blend, so I bought a bag of Fish and Sweet Potato kibble (feeling that sweet potatos are more nutritious) and have been mixing the two - 60% of the fish, 40% of the duck.
That can of NB Duck and Potato really put me off that blend so yesterday I went to get a bag of a new kibble to replace the Duck kibble. I came home with a sample and a bag of Wellness5 (chicken based), and planned on doing 60% NB Fish and Sweet Potato with 40% of the Wellness.
But now I've been reading about the Wellness and .... frankly .... I'm scared ! LOL.
Prancers coat is good, no hot spots, no dandruff - just a "baldish" spot near her tail but it seems to be growing in nicely now and she's itching at it alot less.   Her stools however seem TOO small, and TOO firm.   Part of me thinks this can't be all that good, but I'm not expert.   At only 8 months old she does have a little tartar so I'm also concerned about keeping her teeth clean (and maybe some day she'll actually let me brush them !).
Sooooooooo .... now I'm confused.   Should I keep the Wellness or bring it back for the Duck and Potato ?   What would you do ?

brookcove

Posted : 3/2/2007 10:46:09 AM

First of all, congrats on your new "baby"! I know how you feel - I adopted a dog and found out a few years later that he was not eighteen to two years old when I adopted him, but more like ten to twelve years old! When he passed away of renal failure I really wanted to do what I could for my dogs' optimal health. I was so uptight I'd literally get shaky when considering my diet choices.

That was all good because I'm really knowlegeable today (though no expert, certainly). However, I've learned over the years not to sweat it too much. Your dog will tell you if you've made the wrong choice and it's very, very rare that you can do something so wrong (short term) that it will cause permanent damage.

The nice thing about poodles is that not fragile flowers healthwise. I hear of so many living well into their teens. So I honestly wouldn't consider a healthy eight year old poodle (I'm assuming toy, right?) to be more than late middle aged. You might want to look at some of the formulas that are higher in protein like a couple of the Timbewolfs, Nature's Variety, and if you don't mind grain, Solid Gold's Just a Wee Bit. I'm a big giant huge fan of Nature's Variety but you are right, the grain frees are very heavy on the carb side and not something I'd feed a toy breed without some protein supplementation.

The other option you might consider if you really like the Natural Balance otherwise, is feeding something like EVO canned or Evanger's with the NB kibble. Instead of lots of taters, those have 95 to 100% meat and they offer some yummy variety like rabbit, beef, venison, etc.

Good luck!

sandra_slayton

Posted : 3/2/2007 11:07:56 AM

First, since I don't feed any of the named foods, i have no input on that. However, i did want to say that is one CUTE pup you have there. Also, when we lose a dog to something like that, we tend to worry and fret. I lost my 12 1/2 year old irish setter to bone cancer and it started with a limp we thought was his arthritis acting up. Then when my 16 month old golden retriever started limping i was in a pure state of panic. Turns out it was luxating patella--a lot more common on toy and small beeds--which required surgery, then 14 months later her other leg had to be done.

not long after her 2ed surgery she had a severe reaction to her set of vax--no problem with puppy hots nor first year vax. Then i lost my 4 year old golden boy to autoimmune hemolytic anemia and liver damage brought on by proheart6. Now i worry and fret over every shot, every med, etc, any of my goldens get. I try to do nothing different that could upset their immune system. Worry, worry, worry. We just can't help it.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/2/2007 11:20:15 AM

Natural balance is a godsend for dogs with allergies, but it's so high in carbs I wouldn't recommend feeding it to your non-allergy dog. Wellness, well, it's ok but very grain-heavy. For a toy dog, I don't see any reason to feed kibble. Canned foods are much healthier-- look into the 95% EVO and other low-carb offerings.

You might want to look into feeding a raw or home-cooked diet. Very healthy if done right, and the act of preparing the diet will help soothe your "hypochondria".

JoAnnDe

Posted : 3/2/2007 12:10:41 PM

Hi - thanks for all the feedback, compliments on my little girl, and making me feel like not being so much of a nut for being a worrywart !
I did realize that the protein was a little lower than it probably should be on the NB foods, so I bought a bag of Evo kibble to use as treats (she gets about 12 nuggets of that a day on avg).
I'd really make myself crazy trying to homecook - I know I'd be blaming myself for anything and everything that wasn't quite perfect

I hadn't looked at soft foods - I generally add water to the kibble in the morning and keep it dry at night.   She gets about 1/4rd of her food in the morning with water, another 1/4 during the day in her toy or during training time, and the rest is fed at night. Occassionally I'll put an espresso spoon full of Mighty Dog .. LOL - don't yell at me - I only use it as an extra special treat in her Kong when I have to crate her.
She's still quite young (8 months) and probably a miniature poodle mix (she weighs about 13 lbs), so I feel like I have the chance to "do this right" with her.
I'd prefer to keep her on kibble   (don't ask me why - its just a "feeling", I can't think of anything specific that I dont like about canned).
I guess my real question is around the Wellness - the first three ingredients are deboned chicken, chicken meal, and oatmeal (followed by ground barley and ground brown rice).
Because she only eats such a small amt each day (1 cup total right now - I'm monitoring her weight to see if I need to reduce that further) I want to make sure that she has "enough of everything".
Are carbs bad for small dogs ?  If grains are bad, and carbs then that would mean that all kibble is bad ....or am I wrong about this ??

jennie_c_d

Posted : 3/2/2007 1:16:56 PM

Are carbs bad for small dogs ? If grains are bad, and carbs then that would mean that all kibble is bad ....or am I wrong about this ??

The general concensus, here, is that dogs are carnivores (or at least at the carnivorous end of omnivores) and need MEAT, above all else. Carbs, in particular, aren't 'bad' for dogs, but that shouldn't be where the bulk of the nutrition comes from, for a young, healthy dog.

Personally, I don't think kibble is the best choice for ANY dog. Why? Because it's dried up hunks of processed stuff. It's the farthest thing from a natural diet imaginable. It's said to be 'complete'. I don't understand how you can get ALL of the variety and ALL of the nutrients you need from eating the same thing, three times a day. Not only would it be boring, it'd be bad for your stomach, and there's no way you could get everything!

The reason 'small dogs' were mentioned was because of price. Lots of people here have multiple, large dogs. They feed part kibble, and part homecooked or raw. They do this because a) they don't trust any company completely with their dogs' health and b) they can't afford to feed only fresh foods to 5 or more large dogs. Personally, I have two small dogs, and feed no kibble. Mine get modified raw. They used to get kibble/canned, then we moved to kibble/homecooked, then straight homecooked, then the modified raw diet (with cooked root veggies). They've done very well, with this.

There's a lot of information, out there. Enough to make your head spin in a thousand different directions[

] You love your dog, though, and you'll find what works best for her.

sallya

Posted : 3/2/2007 4:04:41 PM

Natural Balance is a godsend for sure for allergy dogs and others too. I feed Trudy the fish and sweet potato. I also cook veggies and sweet pot. fresh. My little parrot gets lots of good breads and "cookies" made with veggies and sweet potato so Trudy gets some too. No grains. I make sure Trudy gets fresh foods with her Nat. Balance kibble and canned food.

Edie

Posted : 3/2/2007 8:33:43 PM

Wellness isnt that bad,it just seems to be too grain heavy for most owners AND dogs ,and the general concensus is that cancer cells feed off of carbs,so if you're worried about that stay away from high grain foods.,i'm not sure if the potao/carb count in NB counts in this,it is generaly grains that are indicated.And lots of owners have reported gunky teeth on wellness

I think the best thing you can do for your dog nutrition wise is to give as much fresh,live,real,whole foods as you can,everything kibble is not!
My dogs get dry food,but never on it's own,i always add extra healthy ingredients,such as meat,fish,cottage cheese,fruit/veg etc etc.They also get a large assortment of canned foods,which is much healthier than kibble.Essentially the closer you can feed them to what nature intended,the better.

My guys also get plenty of raw meaty bones,which by the sounds of things your dog may need,if she already has tartar at such a young age.Rmb's are the best toothbrushes,for a dog your's size RAW chicken wings and necks would probably suffice to getting her teeth into shape,you can also try the big knuckle bones for her to gnaw on.

Eating nothing but a dry processed food for every meal is no healthier for our dogs than it is for us [

]

jenns

Posted : 3/2/2007 9:46:46 PM

I agree with the recommendations of not relying on kibble for such a small dog. I have an 8 lb dog and the only reason she eats kibble in the morning is because DH feeds her at that time due to our schedules and he refuses to deal with messy canned food. But she gets canned at dinner time and I rotate brands. For kibble she is eating Natural Balance Ultra Premium. If it weren't for the fact that it's making her a little constipated it would be perfect - her coat is so glossy and soft [

] Kibble is made with a lot of carbs so that it can take the shape of a dry "pellet" but if you read the ingredients on canned foods there isnt nearly the amount of carbs and grain.

JoAnnDe

Posted : 3/3/2007 7:39:26 AM

Thanks all .... here I thought the high quality kibbles were actually a GOOD thing ... guess not ! Ok, so today the 15 lb bag of Fish & Potato goes back (it was going back anyway - its way too much food) and I'll bring back the Wellness also. I'll replace that with a 5 lb bag of Fish & Sweet Potato kibble (as treats / training) and canned food - guess y'all have convinced me.
I'll see if they have the 95% Evo that was mentioned. I'd like to mix some veggies into that also - are there any veggies that I should avoid, or can I just give her some of whatever I happen to be eating that day ? Are there any veggies that are better for her / recommended ?

Vivian

Posted : 3/3/2007 8:10:49 AM

April gets fed Innova Evo.

glenmar

Posted : 3/3/2007 8:33:20 AM

I have six german shepherds, and as Jennie mentioned it's not so much a cost issue for me, it's a time to cook for both meals. It would actually be cheaper to homecook ALL their food, but I flat don't have that much time in my week.

My dogs get Innova or Canidae for breakfast and homecooked or raw for dinner. Raw, even once a week keeps their teeth sparkling clean. My homecooked recipe was developed by a canine nutritionalist so I'm comfortable that they are getting what they need. But, Jennie is also right on the trust issue. I do not trust ANY prepared dog food, nor my homecooked even, to be 100% correctly balanced, and this is why they get both. Between the two they SHOULD be getting everything that their bodies need.

I've read wayyyy too much about Wellness causing dirty teeth to even give it a go. Carbs are what STAY on the teeth and cause the plaque. I've also heard a lot about the parent company,. Old Mother Hubbard, to be comfortable with Wellness even if I hadn't heard about the dirty teeth problem.

Totally OT, but, Auburn, you continue to impress me. So many folks your age just go with what they learned at a younger age, but here you are on this forum and feeding something totally alien to what you were probably raised with. Atta girl!! [

]

JoAnnDe

Posted : 3/3/2007 8:22:58 PM

Ok, I'm back from the store. I got a 5 lb bag of the NB Fish & Sweet Potato kibble, and 3 cans of 4 different canned foods. Wellness Chicken & Sweet Potato (also has ground barley as the 5th ingredient - I suspect the barley isn't a great ingredient, but the other ingredients looked great), NB Duck & Potato, Solid Gold Turkey, Ocean Fish (has brown rice - probably not a terrible grain), and Pinnacle Chicken and Vegetable (has oat bran).
The Pinnacle ingredients look so good on the label that I'm wondering if I should start eating it for a healthier diet ! LOL
How'd I do ??? Any comments on any of the items from todays purchase ?
My plan is to feed 1/2 can plus 1/2 cup dry daily (she weighs 12lbs). I'd be feeding her 2x per day, with 1/4 can in the morning, 1/4 cup dry throughout the day (training / treats), and the remaining 1/4 can and 1/4 cup dry at 6pm.
I'd be rotating through the cans, so she'd get a new flavor / recipe every other day. Any concerns with any of that ?
Thanks for all your guidance - I appreciate the input.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 3/4/2007 12:05:33 AM

That sounds wonderful. I think your little girl will LOVE it[

]

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/4/2007 6:41:36 PM

Monica Segal sells a line of little, cheap booklets about feeding dogs. At $6 each, they are terrific. She has one on "how to enhance commercial diets" that might be worth your while. It talks about what kinds of fresh foods are best to add to commercial diets, and how much.