Iams Kills

Excellent post Jenns,couldnt agree more [sm=wink2.gif]

And yet you all ask all the time... why don't they do a test to show how much better raw is? Why can't they prove that my food is better than that science diet crap? Where's the study?

For those of you with large breed dogs, how important is it for you to know that its not protein that is dangerous to growth, but the mineral content? How many of you would prefer to feed "perfect" foods like Innova EVO because they're better (but never tested) and have your dog suffer from a condition easily controlled by diet because you didn't know about the minerals? You'd never know, and never be able to prevent it.

Research doesn't just hurt dogs, it helps them too! The research beagles that have served their duty in research labs come to my vet school to perform their last service. I use them to practice my surgical skills so I don't drop YOUR DOGS pedicle on my first year as a practitioner. Wouldn't you hate to have your dog die on the surgical table because I'd only practiced on plastic prior to graduation? If anyone knows what kind of hell those dogs go through, it would be me. I'm the one who butchers them with my pathetic surgical skills, I'm the one who carries them out of their kennels because they're terrified to leave, I'm the one who prefers to expresss their bladders because their too terrified of grass to pee outside. I'm the last one to give them any kind of love or compassion, and I'm the one who pushes the plunger and says goodbye, thanking them for that ultimate service as they beat their last beat and take their last breath.

I know better than anyone, and yet I still support research... I wonder why that could be...

If you have EVER used any drug of any kind for yourself or your animal, but are against animal testing you are a hypocrite. If you get the flu vaccine, the new hpv vaccine, or any other medical treatment that prevents thousands of deaths every year, you are a hypocrite.

Animal testing is a necessary evil that allows our society to benefit in many ways every day. Its unfortunate that its not a perfect system, and that problems like those found in proheart 6 were not found sooner. Without research, we will never know the answers to the questions we ask every day, we will only guess, and when you guess, you're wrong as often as you're right.

What a terrible,terrible heartbreaking post misskiwi [&:]

Why cant they let you butcher some of the millions of dogs euthanised around the country each year.

I feel sick after reading your post

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

Iams® MiniChunks Dog Food is formulated to meet the nitritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile for Maintenance

Yup, no kidding. All Iams formulas are now "formulated" to meet AAFCO standards.

Customer wants can really push a company... more than people realize sometimes. Like someone in another forum so eloquently stated, dog foods aren't made for dogs anymore, they're made for owners.

 
     Well, crap. Thats such a shame ... I'm having problems with Eukanuba lately, with all their recent formula changes and none for the better, I just couldn't figure out why the food was so drastically different. I did notice on one of the puppy food bags in Oct/Dec that it did not state "feeding trials prove it meets AAFCO standards". For some reason I thought it meant only that particular formula. I guess the problems are not flukes & I need to cross Euk off my list. I hate to do it, I've been using them on & off for seven years [sm=rolleyes.gif]
     BTW, you're absolutely right. Companies are not taking the nutritional needs of dogs int enough consideration anymore - its all about impressing the owners. I also knew someone on the AOL boards who used to say that ... no one listened to her (EastGSD) but she was dead on.

ORIGINAL: Edie

What a terrible,terrible heartbreaking post misskiwi [&:]

Why cant they let you butcher some of the millions of dogs euthanised around the country each year.

I feel sick after reading your post

They do. We also get humane society animals, the ones that would have been euthanized at the shelter. I can't take them. My group goes early to pick a beagle every week, because I KNOW those dogs have had a horrible life, and I can ease their pain once I am done... but the shelter dogs, most of them could still live a happy healthy life if someone would take the time. We get a lot of "retired breeders" from local puppymills too, dogs that are less than 2-3 years old, often a breed that was popular but doesn't sell well (cairn terriers, shiba inus, king charles spaniels) and one of my friends adopted the most scared, ugly, disgusting dog I'd ever seen, and she turned out to be one of the sweetest, happiest dogs you could imagine.

No... I can't do it. I won't ever take a shelter animal that doesn't wake up when I'm done. Its hard enough as it is.

I need to repeat though... its a VERY necessary evil. I dropped a pedicle last week during lab, shit happens, and I'm not just making up stories to scare people... I'm so glad I can learn from my mistakes now, its much less heartbreaking than screwing up an animal that was actually loved. I don't know how I would ever live with myself if I killed a pet out of incompetence. I know it will happen someday, I'm only human, but I pray it never happens to me anyway...

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

And yet you all ask all the time... why don't they do a test to show how much better raw is? Why can't they prove that my food is better than that science diet crap? Where's the study?

For those of you with large breed dogs, how important is it for you to know that its not protein that is dangerous to growth, but the mineral content? How many of you would prefer to feed "perfect" foods like Innova EVO because they're better (but never tested) and have your dog suffer from a condition easily controlled by diet because you didn't know about the minerals? You'd never know, and never be able to prevent it.

Research doesn't just hurt dogs, it helps them too! The research beagles that have served their duty in research labs come to my vet school to perform their last service. I use them to practice my surgical skills so I don't drop YOUR DOGS pedicle on my first year as a practitioner. Wouldn't you hate to have your dog die on the surgical table because I'd only practiced on plastic prior to graduation? If anyone knows what kind of hell those dogs go through, it would be me. I'm the one who butchers them with my pathetic surgical skills, I'm the one who carries them out of their kennels because they're terrified to leave, I'm the one who prefers to expresss their bladders because their too terrified of grass to pee outside. I'm the last one to give them any kind of love or compassion, and I'm the one who pushes the plunger and says goodbye, thanking them for that ultimate service as they beat their last beat and take their last breath.

I know better than anyone, and yet I still support research... I wonder why that could be...

If you have EVER used any drug of any kind for yourself or your animal, but are against animal testing you are a hypocrite. If you get the flu vaccine, the new hpv vaccine, or any other medical treatment that prevents thousands of deaths every year, you are a hypocrite.

Animal testing is a necessary evil that allows our society to benefit in many ways every day. Its unfortunate that its not a perfect system, and that problems like those found in proheart 6 were not found sooner. Without research, we will never know the answers to the questions we ask every day, we will only guess, and when you guess, you're wrong as often as you're right.

 
Unfortunetly your post made me support animal testing even less then I already did.

 
Reading between the lines on the Eagle Pack quote, it looks like they test in kennels not owned by them, but run by people they have on their council that likely have large numbers of dogs available for testing. I wonder if they are reputable breeders...do they have info on names of these council members?

 
     I'm not sure how many breeding kennels were involved in the testing/formulation of Eagle Pack Products, but I do know Linda Arndt uses her own Danes to test the product. She's as reputable as they come, lol. Not sure about their other testing kennels.
     Also, I know Blackwood was using volunteer kennels with certain numbers of dogs/bitches in whelp/litters to test their formulas. I have a "friend of a friend" who hunts small game birds w/ his Labs & Llewlins, who had about 35 dogs and took part in the formulation of one of their newer foods. Its an excellent food, too.
     I agree thats a much better alternative to keeping the dogs for the sole purpose of the feeding trial, but either way, its still proving the food works, and reassures me there's reduced chance it will cause a disaster. To the person who posted the Iams ingredient list and cited it as beign a high grain food ... actually, its only about 38% carbs. [sm=happy.gif]  

What i meant about the shelter animals was,cant they send you the bodies after they've already been euthanised?Why do you have to do it?

What is a pedicle?

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: Edie

What a terrible,terrible heartbreaking post misskiwi [&:]

Why cant they let you butcher some of the millions of dogs euthanised around the country each year.

I feel sick after reading your post

They do. We also get humane society animals, the ones that would have been euthanized at the shelter. I can't take them. My group goes early to pick a beagle every week, because I KNOW those dogs have had a horrible life, and I can ease their pain once I am done... but the shelter dogs, most of them could still live a happy healthy life if someone would take the time. We get a lot of "retired breeders" from local puppymills too, dogs that are less than 2-3 years old, often a breed that was popular but doesn't sell well (cairn terriers, shiba inus, king charles spaniels) and one of my friends adopted the most scared, ugly, disgusting dog I'd ever seen, and she turned out to be one of the sweetest, happiest dogs you could imagine.

No... I can't do it. I won't ever take a shelter animal that doesn't wake up when I'm done. Its hard enough as it is.

I need to repeat though... its a VERY necessary evil. I dropped a pedicle last week during lab, shit happens, and I'm not just making up stories to scare people... I'm so glad I can learn from my mistakes now, its much less heartbreaking than screwing up an animal that was actually loved. I don't know how I would ever live with myself if I killed a pet out of incompetence. I know it will happen someday, I'm only human, but I pray it never happens to me anyway...

 
Isn't it only Animal Control that sells its dogs to labratories?? At least that is what I though. I thougth animals at SPCA and Human Society's were just euthanized

What i meant about the shelter animals was,cant they send you the bodies after they've already been euthanised?Why do you have to do it?

I  knew that is what you meant and I agree. Why not AFTER they are dead?   If they make it thru surgery, what happens to them then?
I honestly don't think I'm going to sleep tonight! 

I'm not sure how many breeding kennels were involved in the testing/formulation of Eagle Pack Products, but I do know Linda Arndt uses her own Danes to test the product. She's as reputable as they come, lol. Not sure about their other testing kennels.  Actually I just read an interview with the people at Eagle, where they talked about the difference in feeding a test dog as compared to a pet..which is why they don't use kennels.

  Probably as many as they said...none! 
 

And yet you all ask all the time... why don't they do a test to show how much better raw is? Why can't they prove that my food is better than that science diet crap? Where's the study?

  They can do the study on people that feed raw and study the results. They don't need to cage dogs and force feed them raw to.

ORIGINAL: Edie

What i meant about the shelter animals was,cant they send you the bodies after they've already been euthanised?Why do you have to do it?

What is a pedicle?

No, bodies won't work. Bodies don't bleed. You have NO idea how much you freak out the first time you hit an artery... even a little one. You can't freeze when you make mistakes, you have to dig in and fix it. You have to be able to think on your feet and deal with problems as they arise. If you don't experience common problems, and you aren't able to deal with them, how are you going to deal with a bigger problem?

The pedicle is the part of the dog that attaches to the ovary. It has a small artery running through it that is small enough its easy to tear, and just big enough that a dog can bleed significantly if you don't tie it off properly to prevent bleeding. I had one tear apart in my hands last week. The dog was a bit older, and older dogs tissues are more friable, and don't hold together as well. I was getting ready to place my second clamp, and it just tore into two pieces. The pedicle disappears really fast, the other end is attached to the kidney, so when you drop it, you have to act FAST and get it back and tie off the artery. Its one of those things where a dog won't die unless you're an idiot, but its still something that needs to be taken care of in a hurry.

Its a good lesson to learn... gentle tissue handling and proper control of bleeding are a surgeons art. Any idiot can read a book and cut tissue with a scalpel, but to perform a surgery with skill take practice... lots and lots of practice. Cold, dead, stiff tissue, or rubber models just don't cut it. For things like palpation, venipuncture and others they're fabulous teaching tools and should be encouraged, but NOTHING replaces real life experiences.

We don't buy any of our animals. Every last one is donated. We do not and will not support anyone who buys and sells animals for research. For instance, there was a problem last year where they ran out of dogs. They had too many dogs adopted by students, and they had to share dogs between labs to make sure there were enough to go around. If the supply runs short, its great for the dogs, and we make due with what we have.

One of my favorite animal research links:

http://www.fbresearch.org/survivors/

I hate to admit this in this thread but I will anyway.
 
I do animal research.
 
Yep, you read that right.  Not on dogs, but I do on mice.  An animal is an animal.  But, these mice were bred solely for the purpose of research and would NOT SURVIVE outside of a laboratory setting. 
 
I completely 100% agree that anyone that uses any medication whatsoever but is completely against animal research is a hypocrite.  I work in CANCER research - particularly pancreatic.  There's something like a 4-5% survival rate for 5 years when you get pancreatic cancer.  The only way to help those patients starts in petri dishes then mice.  No other way around it, unless you want to volunteer as my next victim... err patient. 
 
Maybe it's not "right" - but if you get cancer you better deny any and all treatment if you're against animal testing.  And the figures are something like 30% of us will have some form of cancer in our lifetimes.  It's staggering.  I don't have a source for that figure, but the percentage was much higher than I'd have ever thought.  Cancer is a vicious disease.  Now there is a "vaccine" for cervical cancer (HPV vaccine) - that's a great start in the fight against cancer.  And I'm sorry animals died for it to be a reality, but I'm not sorry that it exists. 
 
I guess I've come to terms with it as a scientist.  Of course, to me, mice don't have a sense of "being" or of looking at you all sad-like so you feel guilty.  But no matter what, I'm all for the science and research. 

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

And yet you all ask all the time... why don't they do a test to show how much better raw is? Why can't they prove that my food is better than that science diet crap? Where's the study?

 
Who is "they"?  Who would have the funds to put forth for a study on raw when there is no money to be made from it?  And even so, why would one need to breed and cage innocent beagles to make such a determination? 

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: Edie

What a terrible,terrible heartbreaking post misskiwi [&:]

Why cant they let you butcher some of the millions of dogs euthanised around the country each year.

I feel sick after reading your post

They do. We also get humane society animals, the ones that would have been euthanized at the shelter. I can't take them. My group goes early to pick a beagle every week, because I KNOW those dogs have had a horrible life, and I can ease their pain once I am done... but the shelter dogs, most of them could still live a happy healthy life if someone would take the time. We get a lot of "retired breeders" from local puppymills too, dogs that are less than 2-3 years old, often a breed that was popular but doesn't sell well (cairn terriers, shiba inus, king charles spaniels) and one of my friends adopted the most scared, ugly, disgusting dog I'd ever seen, and she turned out to be one of the sweetest, happiest dogs you could imagine.

No... I can't do it. I won't ever take a shelter animal that doesn't wake up when I'm done. Its hard enough as it is.

I need to repeat though... its a VERY necessary evil. I dropped a pedicle last week during lab, shit happens, and I'm not just making up stories to scare people... I'm so glad I can learn from my mistakes now, its much less heartbreaking than screwing up an animal that was actually loved. I don't know how I would ever live with myself if I killed a pet out of incompetence. I know it will happen someday, I'm only human, but I pray it never happens to me anyway...

Sounds like the German concentration camps in WW2 where they did medical experimentation on people.   That is sick!!!!!  How do you sleep at night?  I couldn't.