Beneful Problems

I don't see what diet has to do with infectious (distemper) or genetic (hypothyroid) diseases either. Most studies on diet have been done in humans, and what diet seems to impact most strongly are degenerative conditions of the elderly. Eat an  non-optimal diet and your chances of enjoying a healthy old age go way down. I'm sure the same applies to dogs. How many dogs have you met who start showing serious signs of aging when they are very young, say age seven? That is something that is very likely to be caused by a poor diet.

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton
First, I rather suspect the general public would be shocked to find out that they know NOTHING about how a healhty dog should look. You h ave got be joking that the general public does not know if a dog is stinky, oily, foul breath and what ever else.

 
I see it all the time. I see it with friends dogs, family dogs and dogs out in public. A lot of people seem to think that a stinky greasy coat and  foul breath is "normal doggy odor". I know what my friends and family feed and I truly believe that diet plays a big part of this.
 

And as for hot spots, some dogs, no matter what they eat get hot spots, golden retrievers being one of the breeds very much prone to them. Visit any golden forum, check out and see the number of dogs battling hot spots at any given time, and you can also check out what they eat and many are on premium brands.

 
I won't deny that hot spots can occur no matter what but I do believe that diet can play a big part of them. Shiloh used to get hot spots when I fed him Purina and Pedigree and they disappeared when I switched him to Nutro Natural and then to Canidae.
 

And as for allergies, I think a large majority of dogs on this forum, despite being fed top of the line food, have allergies of some kind, either food or enviroment,.    To say all hot spots and allergies is caused by "lesser foods" is down right out in left field and far from a correct statement.

 
I don't believe I've ever said that all hot spots and allergies are caused by lesser foods. I have said that they can be a cause.
 

There are dogs here that are allergic to chicken, to lamb, to beef, to rice, to wheat, to corn, etc.  And the premium brands do include these in most of their prodects in one combination or another.

 
Tis true. 

Second I suspect most of the millions of general public would like to know where you  studied dog health so that you can look at a dog and tell it is perfectly healthy or not.

 
Hmmm, is a greasy, stinky coat and killer breath a sign of good health? To *me*, that's a sign of a problem and it's something that should be looked into.
 

I don't mean reading things on the net, I mean going to school for several years to learn all about dog health, nutrition, etc.  I notice one person agreed with you so I guess she went to the same school.  Maybe all vets should go there so they can learn what you leanred.

 
I really don't believe that one needs to be a veterinarian to realize that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath are signs of a problem but if it makes you feel better, I've spoken to various vets who would agree that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath is a sign that there's something wrong. It can range from something as poor feed to thyroid problems to dental problems. Either way, it should be checked out. And if there's a vet out there who doesn't believe that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath is a problem that shouldn't be looked into well, there's that saying that goes "What do you call a veterinarian that graduated at the bottom of his/her class? A veterinarian". And I'd be sure I wouldn't use that veterinarian for my critters. []

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

We keep talking about our pets health and their food, but I can't see that we can come up with any final answers to food as long as we are giving them pesticides.

Why does it have to be all or none? If you can't get rid of all the other chemicals in your dog's life, you might as well load him up with crappy food? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Yes, I agree that pesticides contribute to health problems, just like food does. I use chemicals on her as sparingly as I possibly can. But I'm not going to feed her crappy food, or worry any less about her diet just because I can't totally eliminate chemicals from her life. That's ridiculous.

That is exactly what I was thinking as I read these  posts.  If you protect your dog against heartworms you might as well feed them a dog food that is total garbage.... Huh!!!! Anything to defend junkfood is fair, I gues.......

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't see what diet has to do with infectious (distemper) or genetic (hypothyroid) diseases either. Most studies on diet have been done in humans, and what diet seems to impact most strongly are degenerative conditions of the elderly. Eat an  non-optimal diet and your chances of enjoying a healthy old age go way down. I'm sure the same applies to dogs. How many dogs have you met who start showing serious signs of aging when they are very young, say age seven? That is something that is very likely to be caused by a poor diet.

I meet so many middle aged dogs at the dog park next to my home, that are in very poor health.  Arthitis, diabetes, cancer, skin conditions, are just a few.  When you ask the owner what food they are feeding them, you hear the same old answers... Purina, Science Diet, Iams, and Eukanuba....These dogs are way too young to be in such poor physical health.  I guess people don't realize the old saying " You are what you eat" is true for dogs too.  

I guess I feel like if their immune systems were better, maybe they wouldn't have gotten distemper. And maybe their immune system would have been better on a different diet.
 
I don't think food causes thyroid problems in the short term, but I definitely think poor food quality over many generations has caused these problems to get so out of hand.
 
Maybe I'm just crazy, or stupid, but I can't bring myself to believe that the fact that almost every dog has major health problems at some point in its life has nothing to do with the poor quality diets most eat. Obviously there are a lot of other factors involved, but diet is probably the easiest to manipulate and has a huge impact on overall health, which has a huge impact on what diseases and conditions they develop. Just my two cents.

really don't believe that one needs to be a veterinarian to realize that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath are signs of a problem but if it makes you feel better, I've spoken to various vets who would agree that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath is a sign that there's something wrong. It can range from something as poor feed to thyroid problems to dental problems. Either way, it should be checked out. And if there's a vet out there who doesn't believe that a greasy, stinky coat and vile breath is a problem that shouldn't be looked into well, there's that saying that goes "What do you call a veterinarian that graduated at the bottom of his/her class? A veterinarian". And I'd be sure I wouldn't use that veterinarian for my critters.

 
Well, I don't know where my vet graduated in his class at LSU (If I remember correctly) but I do know he has clients come from 3 counties.  Corpus is loaded with vets, yet some drive the 25 miles out here for him to treat their dogs.  There are two vets over on the island, yet some spend up an hour getting here, battling ferry lines, to get their dog to my vet.  I know of one case where the dog was brought 400 miles from fort Worth for surgery to remove golf balls.  The owner/ handler of the state's top arson dog would let no one by my vet treat his dog--he told me this himself.  My mechanic said he would use our vet for his persoanl doctor if he could get by with it.
 
You refuse to get a parvo shot for your puppy and he comes with with parvo, my vet will lay into you and tell you that don't deserve to have a dog, all this could have been prevented if you had done the same for your dog you would do for your child.  He spends his lunch hour reading new techniques, etc, (his receptionists told me this).  He goes and takes refresher classes a couple of times a year. He lost his Science Diet fed 14 year old irish Setter 8 years ago, and now has a Science  Diet fed champion English Setter.  I do not expect she would have won the points to be a champion if she had the oily, greasy fur, foul breah, over weight, etc that some feel is the fate of all "lesser fed dogs".
 
Everyone either loves my vet or hates him because it tells it straight down the line exactly like it is and he holds back no punches. He will tell you to get 10 pounds off your dog, to clean it's ears at least once a week, that it needs more exercise, etc.  He also believes in vitamins and as much natural sups as possible.  he told me to use White Willow Bark for Buck so we can avoid NSAIDs for his arthritis as long as possible.  Now do you think that he is going to tell me my dogs are in great condition if they are not?  I don't just depend on what i see, feel and smell, and  my 50 years of owning dogs to tell me my dogs are healthy.  I depend on him, his training and his honesty to back up what I believe, or tell me i am wrong--and he would do it in a heart beat. 
 
You said you do not have to be a vet to tell a dog has problems by it's oily fur, bad coat foul breath,, etc, etc.  But you also said most of the public think this is normal.  Probably 60 years ago that would be truee because probably 95% or more of the dogs were always outside, never in the house.  Today a great many are kept indoors--my 3 are, and as  amatter of fact, i can only think of 2 dogs on this street that are outside dogs. I do not think this statement can hold true today.  I think most people know their dog stinks, is over weight, has lousy fur,  smelly ears, bad breath,etc.  Maybe they just chose not to spend the money taking it to the vet.  Two of my three goldens sleep in the bed with me and I wold not have a smelly dog or one with bad breath or oily fur on my bed making it stink.
 
I think you do the majoriy to folks an injstice by caliming they think their foul smelling, greasy, oily, brown toothed, dog is healthy.  I am sure many do, but a small number compared to those that do realize their dog is not at it's best.  When our first golden developed low thyroid, it was his coarse fur and sudden weight gaining that got him right to the vet.  That has been the case with many on the golden forums, something as simple as the fur not being as soft and shiney as it had been.  People do know, but some just chose not to find out what the problem is.

I meet so many middle aged dogs at the dog park next to my home, that are in very poor health.  Arthitis, diabetes, cancer, skin conditions, are just a few.  When you ask the owner what food they are feeding them, you hear the same old answers... Purina, Science Diet, Iams, and Eukanuba....These dogs are way too young to be in such poor physical health.  I guess people don't realize the old saying " You are what you eat" is true for dogs too.  
 
     Funny ... two of my dogs were started on raw before they were 12 months of age & were kept on a strictly raw diet until the older one was 4 years. One of them aged at lightning speed on raw - for all appearences my 4 year old dog looked & acted more like 14! Towards the last year on raw, my Shepherd mix's grey hair population quadrupled (he was 3 years) and I had to curb our long walks (2 miles) because of stiffness in his joints. His black coat lost pigment until it was more of a grey, and the other dog's epilepsy was uncontrollable on raw. I could say the same for a few holistic diets, such as Nutro Ultra & Canidae. Meaning they increased grey hair population, caused systemic yeast infections, etc.
     What played the most significant role in my extremely difficult decision to take the dogs off raw was taking them to dog parks and comparing their coats to dogs older than them, who were not riddled w/ grey hairs and didn't have poorly pigmented coats. I don't place Beneful or Dog Chow or Alpo or Pedigree in the same league as Purina One, Eukanuba, Iams, Pro Plan. I pay more for Eukanuba than I did for Canidae because of the quality control (MY dogs weren't dropping dead from liver disease due to aflatoxins) and the extensive research & development that goes into every bag. If you read through some of the research Euk has done, the justifucation for the price becomes apparent. They have studied what grains best regulate blood sugar levels - and let me tell you, I don't have any hypoglycemic hounds anymore, nor do we have doggie sugar rushes. They have even, focused energy levels. I also know someone whose GSDs are working police S&R dogs, who feeds nothing but Euk. He has well bred, long lived dogs - I beleive his oldest just passed on last year at the unherad of age of 15.5 years ... ah, but I digress []
     A point that continues to arise is that of canine cancer, which can probably be best defined as an autoimmune disease. There has been discussion of genetics as being the main factor, and I agree fully with that. You have certain breeds already predisposed to certain problems - in a well bred litter. The problem is, we cannot go to a dog park, see mangy looking dogs and assume because they are fed Purina the food is the major cause of their problems. In addition to inquiring what food is used next time you see a dog in poor condition, also ask of the owner WHERE they purchased the dog. Was it a pet store, hobby breeder, show breeder, pet store, commercial breeder, or a puppy mill. Was there dog a rescue, a stray, or from a pound? Odds are, you will NOT hear their dog was from a reputable, responsible, quality breeder. The overwhelming majority of purebred dogs are from pet stores/puppy mills/commercial breeders. The dams are bred several seasons in a row, which does not give them adequate time to recover physically or mentally. With each litter, we see greater dietary deficiencies in the bitch, which means the developing pups are malnourished in the uterus. Its not uncommon for pet store/puppy mill pups to have a higher rate of birth defects, autoimmune problems, etc. Puppy mills generally pump their pups full of meds that would make anyone cringe - ivermectin, albon, multiple sets of parvo & combo vacciness before 7-8 weeks! On top of this, their breeding stock is not genetically the best to begin with, and no consideration to health is taken when a puppy miller pairs a dog & a bitch together. Keeping in mind that John Q Public normally does not have *WELL BRED* purebred dogs, we cannot point the finger at food only when we see a dog in poor condition. The same goes for mutts, becuase a stray dog is not recieving adequate nutrition or may not be in the best of health - so pups suffer lifelong roblems ...
     I'll be the first to admit that nutrition is a major contributing factor to health, especially since I breed, I see firsthand what certain diets do or do not do for health. But we have lots of inherent health problems in our dogs from unscrupulous breeders, and I think THAT is the single worse factor affecting dog's health today.
     Off my soapbox now, lol [sm=soap%20box.gif]
    

I guess I feel like if their immune systems were better, maybe they wouldn't have gotten distemper. And maybe their immune system would have been better on a different diet.

 
If that were the case, then all premium feed dogs would never catch a single disease, a single virus, have a single ailment of any kind.
 
If this were true in humans, i would not have developed rheumatic fever at age 10- We grew up eating proper foods, mostly home grown meats and veggies, some wild game in there.  I took nutrition and I always fixed balanced meals for my family --when hubby had to keep a list of what he ate when battling gall stones the doctor wanted to know if i was a nutirtionist.  Yet I was diagnosied with rheumatoid arthritis at age 40. That is an autoimmune disease.
 
I totally agree that the immune system can help ward off or at least lessen the effects of some ailments.  But at the same time i have learned that the immune system can get out of wack over simple things like a stomach virus, a change in diet, any kind of drugs or meds can get it screwed up.  Even stress can get it out of wack. Just eating a certain food/foods does not mean your immune system is or will stay perfect.

Hence the "MAYBES". MAYBE if the dog's immune system were better, it wouldn't have gotten x disease. And MAYBE a different diet would have helped his immune system. Obviously I know that food doesn't cure everything. My dog eats only what I would call great foods, and she still has allergies. However(!!!) MAYBE if she'd eaten those great foods all her life, she wouldn't have such problems. MAYBE if many generations before her had eaten the great foods, THEY wouldn't have given her the genes for the problems she has now. No one is saying that a good diet cures everything, but it sure can't hurt! And "good" means whatever, you'll note I didn't once say I brand name. No "bad Purina" no "good Innova". And you'll note I have not ONCE told you, Sandra, that your dogs should not eat Purina. But you're acting like I've told you that you might as well be feeding your dogs rat poison. I have not ONCE questioned that your dogs do well on what you feed them. All I have said is "Maybe" this, "maybe" that, "I wonder" about this, etc.
 
I give up. I'm spending more time explaining things I've already explained than saying anything new. How frustrating. [:@]

A point that continues to arise is that of canine cancer, which can probably be best defined as an autoimmune disease. There has been discussion of genetics as being the main factor, and I agree fully with that. You have certain breeds already predisposed to certain problems -

 
And sadly for me, as I have 3 goldens retrievers, that is a breed that cancer is all to common in.  Just before Christmas on one of my golden forums we lost two goldens.  The 12 1/2 year belonged to a breeder, but was never bred, and was fed Nutro most of her life. The other was just barely 3, was a great duck dog and was on raw.  Both had cancer.  Last summer we lost a 7 year old to cancer 4 months after her last litter of pups--the lump was discovered during her c-section.  She also belonged to a breeder and i can't remember the brand food she feeds hers, but I do think it was one of the "better" but not "premium."
 
When Hunter was in ICU with his AIHA, x-rays and ultrasound was done and there were indicatins of liver cancer.  When he died 4 days later we had a necropsy done as we have his littermate sister and we needed to know about the cancer. My vet cancer runs in canine families like it does in human families. Only thing, when the histopath report came back it was not cancer but drug induced "necrosis" (I dont;' remember the exact word or spelling) of the lver. As i later found out, many dogs deveoped the same conditon after getting proheart6.
 
Ever see the commercials for St. Jude's Children's hospital?  BABIES with cancer are there.  It has nothing to do with what they ate during their year or so, but genetics, family history, and i would say a bit of being unlucky causes it in these precious little souls.
 
Some breeds  are just more prone to certain ailments or diseases than others.  I know with goldens, cancer, allergies, and low thyroid are very, very common.  Bloodhounds and bassetts have eye problems, doxies and bassetts (long, short legged dogs) have back problems.  Luxating patellas is common in toy breeds--even tho my KayCee is most certainly not a toy and did have to have both knees operated on.  There is just no way that anyone can say diet will prevent all these ailments in these dogs.  I agree 100% that diet plays a giant role in over all health of any dog, but to say it would prevent caner or eye problems, or luxating patellas is just not right.
 
By the way, my Buck is 12 today (live expectancy for a golden retriever is 10 to 12 years) and he has a beautiful gleaming red coat, nice clean ears, good breath, and very little gray.  Most people do not believe he is as old as he is because he trots instead of walking,  not much gray, etc.  Purina has done nothing to hurt his health.

And you'll note I have not ONCE told you, Sandra, that your dogs should not eat Purina. But you're acting like I've told you that you might as well be feeding your dogs rat poison. I have not ONCE questioned that your dogs do well on what you feed them. All I have said is "Maybe" this, "maybe" that, "I wonder" about this, etc.

 
No, you have not said I should not feed my dogs purina.  But here is how i look at it.  You cook a big meal and folks sit down and say "Well, maybe a little more salt on this, maybe a little less cooking time on that, maybe more onions in this, maybe if you added a little butter to that, maybe if you didn't ...."  Get the idea, all those "Maybes' is as good as saying your meal is not up to par, you did soemthing wrong. They never out and out say it sin't good.  Well, even tho you never said i should not feed purina, those maybe's are a mighty strong indication you do not think I should.

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b
I guess I feel like if their immune systems were better, maybe they wouldn't have gotten distemper. And maybe their immune system would have been better on a different diet.

 
     In the mid 50s and early 60s, both my grandmothers lost a dog to distemper - both from the distemper shots. They were both fed healthy leftovers. More recently, a GSD breeder I know who had been feeding raw for about 5 years, had an outbreak of Parvo in her kennels ... actually, the best way to control these diseases is to sanitize environment ...

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

I guess I feel like if their immune systems were better, maybe they wouldn't have gotten distemper. And maybe their immune system would have been better on a different diet.

I don't think food causes thyroid problems in the short term, but I definitely think poor food quality over many generations has caused these problems to get so out of hand.

Maybe I'm just crazy, or stupid, but I can't bring myself to believe that the fact that almost every dog has major health problems at some point in its life has nothing to do with the poor quality diets most eat. Obviously there are a lot of other factors involved, but diet is probably the easiest to manipulate and has a huge impact on overall health, which has a huge impact on what diseases and conditions they develop. Just my two cents.

One of the biggest causes of thyroid problems in humans was diet related.  Not enough iodine. That is why  they came out with iodized salt. 

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

I guess I feel like if their immune systems were better, maybe they wouldn't have gotten distemper. And maybe their immune system would have been better on a different diet.

If that were the case, then all premium feed dogs would never catch a single disease, a single virus, have a single ailment of any kind.

If this were true in humans, i would not have developed rheumatic fever at age 10- We grew up eating proper foods, mostly home grown meats and veggies, some wild game in there.  I took nutrition and I always fixed balanced meals for my family --when hubby had to keep a list of what he ate when battling gall stones the doctor wanted to know if i was a nutirtionist.  Yet I was diagnosied with rheumatoid arthritis at age 40. That is an autoimmune disease.

I totally agree that the immune system can help ward off or at least lessen the effects of some ailments.  But at the same time i have learned that the immune system can get out of wack over simple things like a stomach virus, a change in diet, any kind of drugs or meds can get it screwed up.  Even stress can get it out of wack. Just eating a certain food/foods does not mean your immune system is or will stay perfect.

I am sorry, but life and health is not a black and white situation, but many shades of grey. If you feed a dog or a person a good diet, you minimize risks of health problems, not totally eliminate.....Nothing totally eliminates disease, that I know of....

In the mid 50s and early 60s, both my grandmothers lost a dog to distemper - both from the distemper shots

 
That is when I lost my two.  I lost Beauty in l956 and Rascal in i think it was '60.  I had mentioned this to my vet and he said the vax back then were not as good as they are today.  Now i can not tell you if they came down with distemper soon after their vax or not. I just don't remember. I just know that because we truly loved and valued our quail dogs, they were kept up to date on distemper and rabies.  And I do think that was about all athe vax that was around at that time.
 
Also my uncle's pointer, Bessie came down with distemper.  An old man told my uncle to tie  corn cob soaked in kerosine around her throat and it would cure her.  Well, I don't know if that is what did it or not, but she lived. (have often wondered if she had gotten sick before mine and i had tried the corn cob thing if we could have saved mine)  Well, she did live, but she had a "tic" forever afterwards,  her body would jerk" is the best way i can discribe it.  But she continued huting until her death.  Did the corn cob soaked in kerosene sve Bessie and the pills from the vet couldn't save mine?  Will never know.  I just know that some of the old country and hill billy cures work.