In a Wolf's Stomach

Sounds like wolves prefer the "by-products" of their prey []
 
It would be very interesting to see more about the studies done on "what wolves eat". I know, from personal experience, when feeding wolves a deer carcass, they immediately go for the abdominal contents. This is in captive Grey Wolves that were raised in captivity, so I'll presume it's instinctual.
Hey Ron, do you have any interesting links?

Its interesting that they did find stomach in there Sandra. Do you remember the name of the book ? I remember an argument on a raw feeding list some time ago. A woman  fed her dogs a lot of 'whole prey', goats and rabbits she raised herself, and roadkill deer.She was a previous kibble feeder.She mentioned that they ate the stomachs of the animals, and would even purposely eat some of the contents, though they shook most out of the larger prey.This produced a flurry of posts stating that the only dogs that did that were previous kibble feeders.They insisted any dogs that were raised from puppyhood on raw would never touch the stomach. As much as most dogs love green tripe, I find it hard to believe wolves would have such a huge aversion to eating it, as they insist.When I put tripe in a dish with meat and organs like liver and kidney,  Mattie eats the tripe first, every time.

Tripe is SO SO SO good for a dog!

If Ella has a runny poop, I give her tripe the next day and it helps firm her stools back up.
It's supposed to be gentle on a sore tummy, too.

No, I don't remember the name.  I was in the book store--that was going out of business and had books priced at nothing--with my son, DIL and 3 year old granddaughter and she kept trying to show me a book about kittens.  Later after we left I was wishing i bought that book for hubby.  Was in the HUGE outlet mall up in San Marcos 150 miles from here so once we were on the road back home was to late to get the book. 
 
I found it a strange combo--one ear, one lip, hunks of "meat" and then all those organs.  I would have liked to have read the entire chapter about their feeding, but when you have a 3 year old tugging saying "MamMoo, look at the kitty>  This kitty looks like Snowball.  MamMoo, LOOK". it is hard to do much.  Yes, the grandkids call me MamMoo.  When the oldest one, 7 year old grandson started calling me that his parents tried to get him to say Grandma, but I said MamMoo was just fine--I know  lots of Grandma's and Grannies, and Nannies and Nana,s but not another MamMoo.

I don't understand what the surprise is, yes, Coyotes, Wolves and other Candids are opportunistic scavengers/hunters.  Scrounging in human dumps as well for food.
 
One thing I never see the Coyotes around here eat are paws and bird feet...and I've seen them leave the head and intestines on prey animals as well.  In desperate times they will eat just about anything, in a good feeding area sometimes they can afford to be picky like around my area.  Wolves and Coyotes also make up a good percentage of their diet from prey poop as well.  Does that mean I want to add prey poop to my dogs food...not likely.[]
 
With myself, when I see by products listed on a dog food product I stay away from it because I'm not sure of the quality or "what" the by products may be.  Heart, stomach etc are wonderful...beaks, paws, feathers etc...well, I try to personally avoid.  With myself it's the mystery of what the "by products" may be.  If a food lists that they add liver, heart etc or when I pick up a can of tripe I  "know" what I'm getting.
 
Another concern regarding by products are the waste roducts used...or in the case of corn gluten meal...that is also a by product of human food processing...which probably isn't bad in small amounts as a binder...but, some companies use it as a main source of the protein in their foods.   
 
I'm more interested in what diet allows my dogs to live a happy healthy life...not foods that just allow them to survive. []

[linkhttp://www.boomerwolf.com/redcors.htm]http://www.boomerwolf.com/redcors.htm[/link]
 
The above link actually talks about the red wolf but it references L. David Mech, a favorite here, as the source of info. The diet of this wolf is small prey such as rabbits, rodents, and fruit. Yes, I said fruit, like an omnivore. From L. David Mech, who once noted that one pack of gray wolves strung the stomach contents out from a kill and weren't interested in them, so that everyone could assume that canids never eat vegetable matter.

It should be noted that gray wolves have bigger teeth than dogs do, have a different coronoid process in the jaw hinge ability than dogs do, and have stomachs that can hold up to 20 lbs of food. These large stomachs also have an ability to hold onto a bone until it is wrapped in the hide they bit off with it. Once wrapped, it passes, hardly providing benefit, just a hazard of a wolf's life. Dog stomachs do not have this ability. A wolf would get most of its vitamins from eating organ meat, by product, as it were, and some from eating vegetation, and, more easily, from digested stomach contents and some of the large intestine, as well. Also, canids simply don't have as many taste buds for bitter as humans do. So, they can eat something that would turn our stomachs because it doesn't taste bad, to them.

True, we've had debates before. I used to think that dogs were carnivores. Then Kennelkeeper provided some links and also quoted from her textbooks and the scientific facts, free of hyperbole and romantic amphigory, changed my mind. That is why I now think of dogs as omnivores with a strong carni leaning.

These large stomachs also have an ability to hold onto a bone until it is wrapped in the hide they bit off with it. Once wrapped, it passes, hardly providing benefit

ORIGINAL: ron2
 
Any reference source for this Ron?  I'm a skeptic.  I've seen coyote poop and it looked like very furry dog poop.  If they do not digest bone what is the source of calcium in their diet?  Most domestic dogs handle raw bones quite deftly if they aren't too large.

 
It should be noted that gray wolves have bigger teeth than dogs

It should be noted that some sighthounds, such as Pharaohs, have larger teeth in proportion to their body size than most dogs too.  Though i don't think they could handle 20lbs of meat in their stomachs.[]

Wait. What?

What are dogs incapable of doing with bones?
Wrapping them up in the hide that they're eaten with and then passing them? <---you're right.
Or just passing them period?
Because if they're not passing the bone, where's it going?

Bear with me, my coffee has NOT fully kicked in yet.

In the interest expediency, I'll go ahead and give you some links. But you could look it up. Google is easy to use.

And yes, there are a number of dogs that have not had a problem eating bones, yet. Notice the word "yet." In the first link, you can find some dogs that finally got to the "yet" part of it.

[linkhttp://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html[/link]

In the above linked page, you will find a link to a page where several caretakers of wolves answer the bone question. 1) there is no nutritional value of significance in a bone, 2) they have to be careful what bones the wolves might swallow, as there are times when bloody stool is present, thanks to a bone-caused perforation. But often, in digestion, the fur gets wrapped around the bone. 3) They haven't seen a wolf die from a bone obstruction but researchers don't often get to see wolves die and perform necropsies, either. By the time they can find the carcass, scavengers have picked things clean.
 
Most every wolf brought into rehab is malnourished, partially due to starvation, partially due to the imbalances of the "wild dog" diet. One rehabber mentioned, uses a wild canid formula that Purina developed for them for the purpose of rehydrating and nourishing the metabolism of a malnourished wild canid.
I'm still looking for my link to a report from a field researcher who tracked coyotes through the Adirondacks and was able to chart their health through analysis of their scat. Notably, of which, like wolves, the bones are held in the stomach with the fur bitten off with them and the fur gets wrapped around the bone before they pass it on through. Their scat goes through stages, the end of which looks like twigs (bones wrapped in fur).

[linkhttp://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/516962.html]http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/516962.html[/link]


This link includes an introduction written by L. David Mech pointing out that the gray wolf can and will eat fruit as part of it's diet, may be OT for your question but interesting, nevertheless. Yes, the same L. David Mech everyone loves to quote about a pack of wolves scattering stomach contents and not eating them while he was watching. He's a skeptic, too.

[linkhttp://www.wolfweb.com/diet.html]http://www.wolfweb.com/diet.html[/link]

This is a link that specifically mentions how the bone or bone fragment is processed in a wolf.

We also have in this forum a person who not only studies animal digestion, including that of wolves, but has been directly involved in the caretaking of wolves in rehab. Direct, firsthand experience. Of course, most people ignore her when it suits them but she's a good sport about it.[]

Any reference source for this Ron? I'm a skeptic. I've seen coyote poop and it looked like very furry dog poop. If they do not digest bone what is the source of calcium in their diet? Most domestic dogs handle raw bones quite deftly if they aren't too large.

 
    Ron's provided some links and I've personally seen coyote scat that has bone wrapped with rabbit fur. We live fairly close to a state park that we hike frequently. Unlike most such parks which are woods and canyons, this one is mostly fields with prairie flowers and tall grasses. There are many rabbits and consequently many coyotes and we've seen bones wrapped in rabbit fur several times. I do think they digest the smaller bones of a prey animal, such as the ribs, because dogs which are fed RMB's such as chicken wings digest them.

I do think they digest the smaller bones of a prey animal, such as the ribs, because dogs which are fed RMB's such as chicken wings digest them.

Thats right. My dogs wouldnt need fur with their rmb's because they crush and eat them,they dont swallow them whole,except on the very odd occasion that they get a too small chicken neck or something,and even then i dont see it come out the other end,so they must digest it.I've never seen any bone fragments or blood in their poop.

What are dogs incapable of doing with bones?
Wrapping them up in the hide that they're eaten with and then passing them?

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

I read Ron's links and the "wrapping in hide" thing is never mentioned.  No surprise.  This, of course would mean the skin (hide) is not digestible which I have never seen even implied by any source.

The first example in the first link "This hound of about 75 pounds was found by his owner feeding on a dead deer carcass." [font="times new roman"][size=3]is of a dog feeding indiscriminantly.  It does not says what the dog's normal diet consists of and if it had experience eating raw.[/size][/font]
[font="times new roman"][size=3][/size][/font] 
[font="times new roman"][size=3]Someone from "Wolf Hollow" says [/size][/font]
[font="times new roman"][size=3][/size][/font] 
[font="times new roman"][size=3]"[/size][/font]My feeling is that it is safer for wild canines to consume raw bones as they eat the fur as well as bones. The fur can act as a buffer, protecting the stomach lining and intestines from punctures. The bone marrow has great nutritional value and the calcium is obviously important. We do feed our wolves butcher bones when road kill deer is not available. I would suggest that since domestic dogs are not eating the fur that the dangers could be greater. I would not feed cooked bones however."

The links provided also do not support the contention that bones have no nutritive value.  I've never seen any bone fragments or blood in my dog's poop.  I did see bloody and mucousy poop when feeding kibble with barley.  That was before I feed her any bones.

I read Ron's links and the "wrapping in hide" thing is never mentioned. No surprise. This, of course would mean the skin (hide) is not digestible which I have never seen even implied by any source

   [linkhttp://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html[/link];

   Dr. Dunn
I'm responding to a forward from John Glowa, MWC re: raw bones being fed to
dogs. Without researching scientific papers on this subject in regard to
wild canids encountering problems with them, I can only relate to you what
I know from my experience/observations with helping raise 4 captive wolves
for the International Wolf Center. I'm a wildlife biologist in Maine and
the Maine field representative for the IWC. Wolves, and likely the other
wild canids that you mentioned, have a mechanism that protects their
internal organs when they pass the bones of wild animals through their
systems. The first feces produced after a kill are very dark and quite
liquid-like with little form; it looks to us like diarrhea. Wolves don't
necessarily eat everyday and so the subsequent feces often reflects the
same kill. The next time they defecate, the feces is still dark but has
more form. With each defecation, the feces becomes lighter in color and
contains more substance. Because they often eat the entire animal that
they kill, they ingest a lot of hair. Towards the final defecations
involving the same kill, hair can be seen in the feces actually wrapped
tightly around any bones that are passed through. This seems to protect
the organs/passageways as the bones are eliminated.
 
  About blood in stool from bone fragments; 
 To:
T.J. -
I'm going to pass your note on to my Director but I'll tell you a little
bit about the bones we provide our wolves.

Our wolves are all fed a specially formulated dry dog chow. We provide
bovine or swine bones once a week for enrichment purposes. We only toss
large, nuckle bones or other larger bones. We avoid ribs and small bone
fragments because we have see bloody scat after giving such bones. Wolves
have a specially designed digestive system to handle meat and bone. Also,
their scat has also "adapted", when they eat prey, the bone fragments are
excreted in a "cacoon" of fur so that they do not suffer any damage due to
sharp pieces. We do not provide the bones as food, only as enrichment, the
bones do not have a lot of meat or fat on them.
 
 
   As I said above, I have personally seen scat from coyotes that has bones wrapped in rabbit fur; seeing is believing.