Who regulates TO??

think myabe goldens are prone to fatty tumors--i know they are to cancer, as are flat coated retrievers and certain other breeds.

You are right. I have never owned one, but in Vet medicine, sometimes they are called "Golden Tumors"

Not in a mean way (BTW) They just seem to have them more often.....

My best friend's mom had a GSD mix from the pound who lived to 17 on Ol Roy. No joke. He lived in the yard most of his life, and came in the last 3-4 years. She ended up making him chicken and rice, with Pepcid AC and a glucosamine, for the last couple of years. Those meals were not balanced by any means. Tom was deaf, and blind, and finally his legs stopped working one day. He was a big dog. 65 pounds, when I knew him and VERY thin (to keep weight off of his joints).

I remember seeing a show about lions on animal planet or discovery, and it showed how they ate the innards of their kill first and said that the innards were the most nurtriend filled parts of the entire body.

Sandra,
I can attest to that. Lions and tigers,along with many other wild animals will go straight for the visera. In the two prides of lions we had (one male, three females each) the males ALWAYS got first pick. If one of the females got their paws on ANY of the food, the male would go over and beat her up (or give her the give it to me look) and she would reluctantly submit. He would take all the chickens (or whatever they were getting that day), eat his fill and leave the rest for the ladies. The left overs were usually the head, feet, and back portions of the chickens.
 
Sorry for being OT.

[8D]

Okay, I'm a little confused. What verbage do I look for on the bag to know that animal feeding trials were NOT used? Right now I use TO but I will probably go back to innova evo since I just looked at TO's site and they jacked up the prices on everything. Anyone know about those foods' feeding trials? I just don't want to use a food that thinks it's acceptable to neglect dogs in order to make a healthy food.

k_dawg, TO's prices may have gone up but the last time I checked, the shipping was free which compensates for the price increase.

k_dawg;  On the 33 lb. bag of Ocean Blue, on one side of the bag, not the back or front but one of the other sides,  there are a series of paragraphs that talk about the quality of T.O. The last paragraph says that;

   " Timberwolf Organics pet foods are formulated to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages and have met animal feeding trials using AAFCO procedures to substantiate that they provide complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages."

  Have you read these threads?
 
          [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=9435&mpage=1&key=timberwolfⓛ]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=9435&mpage=1&key=timberwolfⓛ[/link]
 
        [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=6235&mpage=1&key=᥀]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=6235&mpage=1&key=᥀[/link]
 
               [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/discus/messages/46/239028.html]http://forum.dog.com/discus/messages/46/239028.html[/link]
  
    They discuss issues with T.O.'s quality control and customer service.  Also, in case you didn't know , T.O. is made in a Diamond plant and while that isn't necessarily a concern if T.O. has people to check shipments for problems and oversee the manufacturing process, this is what they say on their site: 
 
    " Also, our plant is one of the few plants that is APHIS (Agricultural Plant Health Inspection Service) certified or the newer tougher Category III level certified. APHIS helps manufacturing plants meet all certification requirements for export for example, to the EC which is extremely difficult because of their stringent requirements of certification of all ingredients."
 
    They use the phrase "our plant" which to me raises suspicion about their honesty since their food is made in a Diamond plant.
    You may already be familiar with these issues and I hope I didn't offend you but if you didn't know I thought you may want to.

  
  

just don't want to use a food that thinks it's acceptable to neglect dogs in order to make a healthy food.

 
FYI... TO does NOT do feeding trials.  Many of the holistic companies don't do them. They can still claim that their foods comply with AAFCO guidelines just by statistical data alone.  TO is listed on PETA's list of companies that DO NOT DO ANIMAL TESTING.

They use the phrase "our plant" which to me raises suspicion about their honesty since their food is made in a Diamond plant.

 
There is still NO DEFINITE PROOF that this is in any way true. Unless Mr. Kempeter states HIMSELF that Diamond manufactures for TO, it's purely heresay.

There is still NO DEFINITE PROOF that this is in any way true. Unless Mr. Kempeter states HIMSELF that Diamond manufactures for TO, it's purely heresay.

      From: [email=MBrinkm600@aol.com]MBrinkm600@aol.com[/email]
Subject: Timberwolf Organics
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:40:59 EDT

I understand you had a question about whether or not Timberwolf products are manufactured by Diamond.

As the Chief Operations Officer of the Diamond Pet Food Company, I assure you that we do make these foods, and that they are doing quite well.

March was Timberwolf's biggest month in history and their business has grown over 400% in one year.

The company is quite sound, and their formulations are gaining popularity.

Kind Regards,
Mark

Mark Brinkmann
Chief Operations Officer
Diamond Pet Food Company
573-229-4203 ext. 1136
573-229-4655 fax
 
    [linkage=0&fpart=5&vc=1]http://forums.ourdogsonline.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=33469&age=0&fpart=5&vc=1[/link]>http://forums.ourdogsonline.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=33469&age=0&fpart=5&vc=1]http://forums.ourdogsonline.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=33469&age=0&fpart=5&vc=1[/link]
 
  Scroll down to the tenth post; the poster is "momto2dogs".

FYI... TO does NOT do feeding trials. Many of the holistic companies don't do them. They can still claim that their foods comply with AAFCO guidelines just by statistical data alone. TO is listed on PETA's list of companies that DO NOT DO ANIMAL TESTING.

On the side of the 33 lb. bag of Ocean Blue that I had ordered in March, there are a series of  paragraphs that talk about the quality of  T.O. The last paragraph says that;

" Timberwolf Organics pet foods are formulated to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages and have met animal feeding trials using AAFCO procedures to substantiate that they provide complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages."

 Why would they say they have done animal feeding trials using AAFCO procedures if they don't do feeding trials?

I and many others on this forum and elsewhere have SERIOUS doubts that this letter is authentic. First of all why would Mark Brinkman send an email from an AOL address and not a company account ?? Secondly why the hell would he be tooting TO's horn  when he has his own products to worry about and they are the competition ??  And how would he know what their bottom line sales are ??      The entire letter sounds completely bogus.

Why would it say they do animal feeding trials on the bag if they don't?

 
Uh.... because they DON'T ???  Along with all of these other companies who also don't USE or DO feeding trials but MEET them. ( pgs 21 and 22 )
 
[linkhttp://www.caringconsumer.com/page/CompaniesDontTest.pdf]http://www.caringconsumer.com/page/CompaniesDontTest.pdf[/link]
 
These companies ALL use chemical analysis to meet AAFCO requirements.
 
 
>>The National Research Council (NRC) of the Academy of Sciences set the nutritional standards for pet food that were used by the pet food industry until the late 1980s. The NRC standards, which still exist and are being revised as of 2001, were based on purified diets, and required feeding trials for pet foods claimed to be "complete" and "balanced." The pet food industry found the feeding trials too restrictive and expensive, so AAFCO designed an alternate procedure for claiming the nutritional adequacy of pet food, by testing the food for compliance with "Nutrient Profiles." AAFCO also created "expert committees" for canine and feline nutrition, which developed separate canine and feline standards. While feeding trials can still be done, a standard chemical analysis may be also be used to determine if a food meets the profiles.
Chemical analysis, however, does not address the palatability, digestibility, or biological availability of nutrients in pet food. Thus it is unreliable for determining whether a food will provide an animal with sufficient nutrients.
To compensate for the limitations of chemical analysis, AAFCO added a "safety factor," which was to exceed the minimum amount of nutrients required to meet the complete and balanced requirements.
The digestibility and availability of nutrients is not listed on pet food labels.<<
 
 

ORIGINAL: Asthefurflies

The entire letter sounds completely bogus.

And that's one of the many many many reasons I will not use TO until they have the courtesy to answer some of their customers questions. Mark Heyward or someone employed by him should be the one answering questions about their products. I will continue to use products that actually have people standing behind them.