Dog Community

Posted : 11/28/2006 9:31:45 PM

Potatoes are something like 80% water, after the water weight is removed during the cooking process, potatoes would actually be much lower down the ingredient list.

Actually, a potato doesn't lose that much gram weight with cooking, so it's probably a bit higher than you would think.

When a manufacture list an ingredient (as a whole) it does mean that the moisture content is calculated as well, but when they also list a "meal" (which has already had much of it's moisture removed) you really can't compare the two side by side. In order to get an accurate % of potato to meal, you need to do a conversion of one of the ingredients (wet to DM or DM to wet) to be able to compare them.

Baked potato with skins weigh 300 grams and raw potato with skins is 369 grams, so the potato is loosing just a bit more than 1/7 (doing the math in my head, [&:] help Ron2) of it's pre-cooked weight.

sooner

Posted : 11/28/2006 9:35:56 PM

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Baked potato with skins weigh 300 grams and raw potato with skins is 369 grams, so the potato is loosing just a bit more than 1/7 (doing the math in my head, [&:] help Ron2) of it's pre-cooked weight.

But a baked potato is still 75% moisture (according to nutritiondata.com). In kibble processing much more of the water would cook out.

jessies_mom

Posted : 11/28/2006 9:43:25 PM

Actually, a potato doesn't lose that much gram weight with cooking, so it's probably a bit higher than you would think.

Renee, I think that Natural Balance has to use a lot of potatos in their potato and duck formula for it to be 465 Kcal/cup and only 21% protein; is that an accurate analysis?

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/28/2006 9:48:50 PM

But a baked potato is still 75% moisture (according to nutritiondata.com). In kibble processing much more of the water would cook out.

HOW? Extrustion is a low temp process and it happens much quicker than when we cook a potato for ourselves. I doubt that there would be much difference except that the potato's are more than likely pulverized and some of the moisture drains off during the pulverization. Most of the ingredients in dog foods are not pre-cooked prior to extrusion, which could mean that some of the moisture is being retained and absorbed by the dry ingredients, no?

ron2

Posted : 11/28/2006 9:49:00 PM

1/5 but I cheated and used a calculator.

300/369=.81, so 2/10 = 1/5

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:01:56 PM

Renee, I think that Natural Balance has to use a lot of potatos in their potato and duck formula for it to be 465 Kcal/cup and only 21% protein; is that an accurate analysis?

Janice, they have to make up the kcals from somewhere and could easily make it more meat heavy, as protein and carbs contain the same amount of kcals per gram. So why do they choose to add more potato than meat? Not to mention that dogs tend to retain more of these calories (carb kcals) if they are not extremely active because they are quickly converted to glucose. Meat on the other hand, take longer to metabolize and are easier to work off! Couldn't this explain why many dogs gain so much weight on NB?

jenns

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:04:08 PM

So why do they choose to add more potato than meat?

Isn't it necessary for all kibbles to contain a large portion of carbs in order to go through the extrusion/baking process so that they retain their shape and texture? Of course that portion is variable and you want the least amount of carb/grain possible, but there is a reason while all kibbles have a large carb content versus the canned versions of the same food.

sooner

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:11:42 PM

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

HOW? Extrustion is a low temp process and it happens much quicker than when we cook a potato for ourselves. I doubt that there would be much difference except that the potato's are more than likely pulverized and some of the moisture drains off during the pulverization. Most of the ingredients in dog foods are not pre-cooked prior to extrusion, which could mean that some of the moisture is being retained and absorbed by the dry ingredients, no?

I'm just saying that a baked potato the way we bake it doesn't lose much of it's weight because it is still mostly water. The skin is whole for the most part and holds the water (steam) in. In kibble the potato is pulverized before cooking, so it's more likely that more of the water would 'cook' out.

Perhaps cook is the wrong word, but it's my understanding that kibbles leave the extruder as a soft dough, then they are sent to a dryer or an additional baking process to remove the remainder of the moisture.

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:24:28 PM

Jenns, I was referring to the ingredient list, not the need for carbs for shape retention during extrusion, of which, I am aware of. My point was, NB could list duck first by adding a bit more. If I remember correctly, they recently changed their formula's which moved the potato into the 1st slot and change the name from "Duck and Potato" to what is now "Potato and Duck".

OT:
I'm just throwing this out there because there is alot of brand bashing, but if it wasn't NB (say Purina, Nutro, Eukanuba, etc), that was listing potato's first, would this subject be so defended? Also, many of you have stated time and time again, that dogs don't need carbs, yet your are defending NB for their use of them. Don't get me wrong, I think carbs are necessary, but alot of these post seem a bit hypocritical to some extent.

jessies_mom

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:42:59 PM

OT but I love your new avatar Kelly; Boomer looks so cute.

jenns

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:43:29 PM

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Jenns, I was referring to the ingredient list, not the need for carbs for shape retention during extrusion, of which, I am aware of. My point was, NB could list duck first by adding a bit more. If I remember correctly, they recently changed their formula's which moved the potato into the 1st slot and change the name from "Duck and Potato" to what is now "Potato and Duck".

OT:
I'm just throwing this out there because there is alot of brand bashing, but if it wasn't NB (say Purina, Nutro, Eukanuba, etc), that was listing potato's first, would this subject be so defended? Also, many of you have stated time and time again, that dogs don't need carbs, yet your are defending NB for their use of them. Don't get me wrong, I think carbs are necessary, but alot of these post seem a bit hypocritical to some extent.

I look at it this way, if you are going to feed kibble, than your dog's diet is going to contain lots of carbs, no way around it. What I have a problem with is when foods such as those you listed (although only some lines of Nutro do this) are using non-meat ingredients as cheap protein sources instead of the meat they should be using. Potatoes contain very little protein, so the NB food is not using potato to make up any of the protein, it is coming from the salmon or duck like it should. Also, as I've said a few times, this food contains 1 carb source which is potato, compoared to a food starting off with a meat and then 3 grains.

If Purina or Eukanuba had an ingredients list that looked like this, then I would defend them too, but sadly they don't!

sooner

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:45:18 PM

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

OT but I love your new avatar Kelly; Boomer looks so cute.

Thanks [

]

jessies_mom

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:47:44 PM

I'm just throwing this out there because there is alot of brand bashing, but if it wasn't NB (say Purina, Nutro, Eukanuba, etc), that was listing potato's first, would this subject be so defended

A lot of members feed Natural Balance and have very good results but you're right; when Ron says he has good results with Nutro he gets attacked, and so do those who feed Purina Pro Plan.

jessies_mom

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:54:14 PM

Potatoes contain very little protein, so the NB food is not using potato to make up any of the protein, it is coming from the salmon or duck like it should

One ounce of a baked potato has 3 grams of protein; one ounce of roasted duck has 5 grams.

ron2

Posted : 11/28/2006 10:55:47 PM

The potato has about 3 grams of protein 100 grams. Rice has, on average 7 grams protein in 100 grams. So, some protein is coming from the potato or the rice.

The food I feed has one meat meal and one grain. No preservatives. The meat meal is listed first, which means it has the greatest weight, which doesn't necessarily mean greatest volume, and that goes for any food.

One might say just because it's listed first doesn't mean anything. But that would be like saying that the ingredient list has nothing to do with the as-fed presentation. Usually, only vets and CVNs say that sort of thing.

Well, mid grade for me I think...