Rambling questions/thoughts about kibble vs. raw vs homecooked...

Im so glad this was posted..ive been looking for this kind of info for Tink

I'm not sure what the exact pH of the dog stomach has to do with anything? dogs can eat stinking rotten stuff that would send a human running to the portapotty for two reasons: 1) they hold the food in the acid of the stomach for up to 12 hours. This kills off most bacteria and turns raw bone into jelly. Humans hold their food in the stomach for only a short period of time. 2) once dogs send food out of the stomach into the intestine, it very rapidly transits through the intestine. Any organism that managed to survive the stomach doesn't have time to replicate or put out toxins. Humans hold food in the intestine for days. Of course these two digestive features also limit what the dog can digest-- tough plant materials and grains that need to be fermented in the intestine for a long period of time for full utilization are not easily digested by dogs. Usually they just end up in the pooper-scooper.

I'm not sure what the exact pH of the dog stomach has to do with anything? dogs can eat stinking rotten stuff that would send a human running to the portapotty for two reasons

Apparently Jessie can't; about 12 hours after scarfing up some cat poop when I was walking her she developed diarrhea; 10 times in 12 hours starting at 2:30 A.M. on a Wednesday and ending at 3:00 A.M. on Thursday.[&o]  I don't know what the pH of a cat's stomach is but it has been proven that they can die from salmonellosis from raw meat;     [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14736718&dopt=Abstract]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14736718&dopt=Abstract[/link]
 
 I do feed Nature's Variety raw medallions to Jessie to supplement her kibble but they're made at a USDA inspected plant and I freeze them at 0 degress F long enough to kill arasites like toxoplasmosis cysts.

Papillion, that link you provided states that the ANTRUM (pyloric antrum, I'm assuming) has a pH range of approx 5 +/-
The Pyloric Antrum is NOT part of the actual stomach (where the main digestion occurs) but a section where digestive hormones are released that controls the pH of the "juices" that are entering into the small intestine (deodenum). The Pyloric Area is separated by the Pyloric Valve (sphincter). This helps to keep the stomach acids from entering into the small intestines where the pH needs to be closer to neutral for absorbtion of nutrients and be more enzyme-friendly.
 
All my research and what I was taught in my small time animal nutrition classes, stated that the stomach pH of dogs was approx. 1.5 (fasted), which is very close to that of humans.
 
If you think about it, meat can not be digested at a pH of 5 -6. It takes a very acid environment to digest proteins and fats. Fiber on the other hand, needs a pH neutral environment AND bacteria to be digested.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Papillion, that link you provided states that the ANTRUM (pyloric antrum, I'm assuming) has a pH range of approx 5 +/-
The Pyloric Antrum is NOT part of the actual stomach (where the main digestion occurs) but a section where digestive hormones are released that controls the pH of the "juices" that are entering into the small intestine (deodenum). The Pyloric Area is separated by the Pyloric Valve (sphincter). This helps to keep the stomach acids from entering into the small intestines where the pH needs to be closer to neutral for absorbtion of nutrients and be more enzyme-friendly.

All my research and what I was taught in my small time animal nutrition classes, stated that the stomach pH of dogs was approx. 1.5 (fasted), which is very close to that of humans.

If you think about it, meat can not be digested at a pH of 5 -6. It takes a very acid environment to digest proteins and fats. Fiber on the other hand, needs a pH neutral environment AND bacteria to be digested.

Because the Pyloric Antrum controls the pH of the DUODENUM, it is very related to the pH level used in digestion....and for the record, no nutrients are digested in the stomach...all nutrient digestion is done in the SMALL INTESTINE (that includes proteins and fats).

And I'm not quite sure where you performed your research, but the fasting pH is not 1.5; it is higher than humans.

Thank you all for the continued and very informative posts! I just have such mixed feelings about raw... some people have GREAT experiences with it, and then I've heard of other cases where dogs have eaten raw food, gotten sick and the vets were able to identify bacteria in the dog's stool that was present in the meat. It would be just my luck that Gingerbread is one of those dogs that would get sick from eating raw. [&:] Then I've also heard of cases (and this is purely anecdotal) of dogs getting a bacterial infection in their brain from raw food.

I've tried to convince myself to try raw sooo many times, but I just can't justify the risk. Dogs aren't wolves and I don't think they need to be fed like wolves either. Can't we get the same pros of raw feeding by giving a balanced cooked homemade/ holistic kibble diet with added enzymes, prebiotics and probiotics?

And I'm not quite sure where you performed your research, but the fasting pH is not 1.5; it is higher than humans.

I linked this site in another post. KK didn't actually have to stick a ph metering needle into a dog stomach, someone else already did.

[linkhttp://www.rivm.nl/interspeciesinfo/intra/dog/stomach/db_dog_stomach.jsp]http://www.rivm.nl/interspeciesinfo/intra/dog/stomach/db_dog_stomach.jsp[/link]

This current discussion started because I stated something about the ph of a dog's stomach, not the later stages, such as small or large intestine or cecum.
 
The linked site provides a fairly detailed description of the process of digestion, written for a layman.

sure you can get most of the benefits of raw by feeding a cooked diet. Except one major benefit-- the clean teeth. Really the only way to get super-clean teeth is via raw meaty bones. Don't discount the adverse health impact of dirty teeth.  If you don't feel raw is for you or your dog, remember to offer something for the dog to chew on and brush those teeth.
I choose to accept the very slight risks associated with  feeding raw because I see the immense health and behavioral benefits to letting dogs eat what they are designed to eat.

Gingerbread, here's some more thoughts to add to the group.
 
Mine get 1/2 cooked and 1/2 commercial raw, plus supplements. If you are using cooked, you need to supplement.  I have a gulper, a thief, and a burier. I have a small house and don't want three crates in it for feeding, plus two of the three don't especially like straight raw. Yes, they could get used to it, but they don't need to. I also give at least one meal a week of either kibble/canned or freeze dried. If I were to get sick or something, I want them to be able to eat it without ill effect for a while.
 
So....they each get a towel spread out on the floor with a nice raw knuckle bone after dinner at least once a week, preferably more. This is very helpful when it is either too hot or cold outside for an after dinner walk as it definately keeps them amused. It was also helpful in teaching stay once I was out of sight.
 
Tasha is seven and has never needed a dental. Wolfgang is five and a half and just now needs his first one, and it has halved the number Floyd needs.

Have you read the Strombeck book?  (Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: the Healthful Alternative)  It has balanced home made recipes that you can double, triple, and freeze so that you could make a week or more in a few hours.  When I was feeding my 3 guys this, I was making it up in bulk, enough for a month, froze them in batches in those cheapy rubbermaid containers and they were all set.  Did very well and loved it, of course!
 
You could also switch to canned foods, dogs love those a whole lot better, they are usually higher in meat and have little to no preservatives. Look at the Natura products (Innova, California Natural, Evo), Canidae canned, etc.
 
Feeding commercial, cooked or raw is an individual decision. Foremost, though, we should listen to our dogs.  Mine just do not do well on raw.  They get diarrhea (my minpin poops in his crate overnight when food doesn't agree w/him, and they aren't tootsie rolls lol).  The bichons, with their full beards- well that was just yucky and one of the 2 is not a great chewer.
 
I get just as good results from cooked, canned and kibble- and this is what I tend to do w/them. Sometimes they get healthy leftovers too- meat, veggies, rice, potato, whatever we didn't finish. 
 
So anyway, it's totally up to you.  If you can find balanced recipes, then you are set.  Try out different ones, whether they be raw or cooked. Gingerbread will let you know what works best for him.
Wags!
 

And I wanted to add also- if you're not comfortable with feeeding raw, don't. 
I tried Volhard for 3 yrs straight (and it was a struggle to get them to eat the morning (grain/veg)meal) I tried the general prey model off and on and wound up with a lot of diarrhea.  I do have one dog who does great on raw but I prefer they all eat the same thing.
 
Your dog will do great with cooked, canned or kibble- you're already well educated about good/bad ingredients.
 
Teeth? Well since I already have to brush my bichon girls every day, it's not much more trouble to brush their teeth- and yes, they are sparkling bright white! I've trained mine to use the Oral B electric toothbrush (has a round brush end). So they sit nice and still for cleanings.
 
It's a personal thing.  Foremost though, listen to Gingerbread about his food. He'll let you know.
Good luck
 

Thank you Shamrockmommy. [] I really just cannot overcome my doubts about raw food. The more I research the more I feel like just because wild dogs or wolves eat raw meat doesn't mean that they're aren't risks from eating that diet. I would imagine that wolves DO die from nutritional deficiencies, perfortated intestines from bones, etc. Living in the wild is a dangerous existence. I do think there are benefits to feeding raw, but I just cannot overcome the cons.

As far as dental health (which is a really good point Mudpuppy!), Gingerbread has bones to chew on all the time and is actually chewing one right now. They aren't raw bones, but I feel that they're cleaning his teeth and massaging his gums anyway.

What I've decided to do is feed Gingerbread a rotation of kibble/canned food with some cooked extras added in occasionally. For now I'm planning to feed the foods below.

Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish
Nature's Variety Lamb & Oatmeal and/or Venison & Millet
Eagle Pack Lamb & Rice

Luvntzus--
 
All three of those companies make great canned food---as good as homecooked, and complete and balanced.  That way there are no worries about supplements as there can be with homecooked.  I think you are on the right track.
 
Does Gingerbread like the Zuke's chew bones?  Oscar used to LOVE them, but they gave him tummy troubles (he does not do potato well), but all my shih tzu friends do quite well with them.

Tzu mom- I keep meaning to try Zuke's bones. Thank you for the reminder! I'm going to get some of those...

I would imagine that wolves DO die from nutritional deficiencies, perfortated intestines from bones, etc. Living in the wild is a dangerous existence

 
Any evidence of a wolf dying from these causes, for the most part, is anecdotal, which means it's not quantified and published in a journal. The problem, according to some researchers is that it's hard to find the wolf right after it died to do a necropsy. By the time they get to find one, without bothering the pack it is in, scavengers, maggots, etc. have already had their way with the carcass. But wolves are often malnourished. Just about every wolf brought into rehab is malnourished. And many rehabbers immediately put them on kibble to bring their numbers back up. Give the system a "re-boot," so to speak. Then they re-introduce raw bones for dentition and eventually, if possible, some freshly dead carcasses to get them back in the habit, as it were, of how they will eat in the wild.