Rambling questions/thoughts about kibble vs. raw vs homecooked...

Hi
I agree with every word you said.  When I was young, I had a Mini Schnauzer who lived to be 17.  She would not eat dog food so my mother cooked chicken for her.  Chicken is protein.  Dogs thrive on protein...not corn, not wheat, not rice, not oats.  All these things are in dog food kibble and they make dog food companies rich at the expense of our pocketbooks and our dog's health and teeth.
Who ever said wolves live long?  I am sure that rotten, decaying, meat  and e-coli kills wild animals too.  Only the strong and lucky survive.    At least they get the bones to gnaw.  While they are aiming for the marrow, they are cleaning their teeth at the same time. That is nature's way.   We give our dogs sterilized marrow bones minus the marrow!
As far as safety in feeding raw food?  As dangerous as it is for the dogs, it is just as dangerous for the owners who handle the raw chicken.   I raise dogs.  I have a onelist on yahoo.  I can't remember how many members have sent in stories of dogs getting diarrhea which turned out to be from a bacteria in raw food.  I can't remember the bacteria now but I know it's true.  And having to handle raw chicken and other raw products... who among us would wear rubber gloves or sterilize kitchen countertops. We are all in a hurry...life is too full.   BARF? that's  a bad joke.  Yes, in the wild dogs or other animals catch , kill, find, eat raw food.   That is not the same as chickens killed, handled, shipped for how long, misdated ( on purpose) by the supermarkets who need to sell their products, etc etc, ad nauseum. 
I am sure that there are zillions who would disagree with me.  I don't care.  I raise the healthiest puppies ( on EVO and/or chicken soup for the puppylovers soul) mixed with some chicken I cook and put through my food processor so it can coat the kibble and entice my pups to eat.   My pups are incredible and owners tell me that their vets, who never praise a dog breeder, send kudos to me. Vets, trainers, groomers, send people to me. 
I would never risk my dog's or pup's health with raw products.
PS.. I am not looking to start any trouble.  These are just my opinions.
Carol

That article does make some interesting points - especially regarding how long domestic dogs have been eating cooked food and even though they descended from wolves, they are not wolves.  I'm not so sure I agree 100% with the health concern regarding raw meat, though.  My dog licks her butt, eats goose poop out on our walks, and sometimes snags old  food out of the garbage, and all these sources have a lot more bacteria in them than raw meat.

Here's the article I read that made me really worry about raw food again:

[color="#000000"]I didn't read the article but I can give you some personal statistics.

[/color]I currently own 4 dogs.  They have been raw fed for over 8 years now.  In that time I've fed over 10 THOUSAND pounds of raw chicken, beef, turkey, fish, goat, lamb, pork, rabbit, etc.  With and without bones.

The dogs have never had impacted bowels, punctured stomachs, Samonella nor E-Coli.

While I purchase only human grade meats I defrost on the counter (24 hours) and I've feed things that have definitely 'turned' (my dogs eat chicken poop - what's a little turned meat?).

My 14.5 yr old Shepherd has Spondylosis, arthritis and a bad hip and yet she's still going (and going GOOD).  She has outlived all her littermates by several years.  I attribute that 100% to the diet.  My Cocker hasn't had problems with his ears since I switched him to raw and his anal glands improved almost 95%.

As dangerous as it is for the dogs, it is just as dangerous for the owners who handle the raw chicken.

Tamara i havnt got time to write the response that i want,but will do later as there's lots i want to add []

However i couldnt resist replying the above quote [8D] I handle raw chicken nearly everyday when i cook dinner for my family,aswell as what i give to my dogs,so you're saying i'm in danger angelwynd?? I dont see any difference in handling raw meat for my families dinner or my dogs  [8|] I use the same prep routine for ALL of us.

I handle raw chicken nearly everyday when i cook dinner for my family,aswell as what i give to my dogs,so you're saying i'm in danger angelwynd??

Seriously, I'm a vegetarian, and handle raw meat at least weekly. Being a vegetarian would make me more succeptible to bacteria from meat, since my system isn't used to it.  I haven't been sick from dog meat, yet.

Kibble, though, kibble makes my dogs SICK. Teenie was violently ill, all week, from a snack of kibble. Emma doesn't even break kibble down. She poops it out, whole.

Gingerbread's story sounds so much like Penny's! It used to take her about 10 minutes to get through a cup of dog kibble. She only got one meal a day and rarely treats, but she'd sit down and pick at kibble and sometimes she wouldn't even finish it. She started getting sick after about 9 years on kibble. She'd get a little stiff and sore in the joints and a day or two later she'd throw up her dinner and go off her food. I'd fast her for a bit and then get her eating again with chicken and rice, then a couple of months later, it would all happen again. Often I had to take her to the vet for a shot to settle her stomach. Sometimes she vomited up water she'd drunk, and bile if her belly was empty.

She really loves her homecooked, though. She finishes it in less than a minute and you wouldn't see her sitting down and picking at it. She tries her best to inhale it. Just seeing how much she loves it compared to kibble is enough to convince me to stick with it.

As for raw.... I don't think you necessarily have to go that way if you want to go off commercial foods. For close to a year, Penny was on homecooked alone with maybe a chicken wing or lamb bone once a week, and she did wonderfully. I don't feel that raw is a must, but I do think that raw bones play an important role in keeping teeth in good nick, and quite possibly in maintaining a good phosphorous to calcium ratio, which I hear is the one thing you really need to watch. If you don't want to feed raw, then you should maybe think about alternatives for teeth cleaning and possibly calcium supplements. You can also freeze some homecooked mixture. We do that for our dogs. I'm not sure if it does much for their teeth, but it takes them longer to get through than many bones and it seems to be quite demanding on their jaw muscles.

My personal opinion on feeding raw is that there's nothing especially wrong with it. Penny's had her weekly dose of raw for the majority of her life and the only thing that's ever made her ill is dog food, and it made her quite ill. Her teeth are also in good condition just from that once a week bone. Considering she sometimes buries a bone for a week, then digs it up again and eats it, I doubt there's many bacteria there that can make her sick. Soil is a hive of bacteria, as is rotting meat, but I've never heard of a dog getting sick from eating meat that's naturally 'matured'. I have heard that if meat goes off in the fridge, the bacteria that makes it turn can be harmful to dogs. I don't know how true that is, but it makes sense to me because I doubt dogs often encounter bacteria that can live in a refridgerator.

Penny has eaten far worse things in her life than raw human grade food and none of them made her sick. I think as long as you're sensible and treat the meat the same you would treat meat you'd eat yourself, you shouldn't have any troubles. But like I said, you don't have to feed raw if you don't want to. Penny likes her homecooked more than she likes raw anyway. []

Thanks guys for all the input!

Corvus- That's exactly the situation with Gingerbread. He'll pick at his kibble and sometimes finish it, sometimes not. Tonight he ate the same thing that I did- chicken, aspargus, and sweet potatoes. I thought he was going to do backflips he was so excited. [] And he licked his plate so clean it looked like it had been through the dishwasher. As far as raw food, the main reason I've been considering that is that it's the only premade food I could find. I was just hoping I could find a premade homecooked food... no such luck! [] I was thinking that homecooked would be more appealing, so you're saying that Penny likes it better than raw confirmed that for me.

So as far as the raw food concerns, that's a good point that several people made that dogs do tend to get into lots of gross stuff and not get sick. But I was thinking, aren't there a lot of times where getting into things DOES make them sick? When I worked at a vet and sick dogs came in one of the first questions was whether the dog could have gotten into something that made them sick- like stagnant water or trash. And then I hear of cases like yours Lauric where you've fed multiple dogs raw for years and never had a problem, but then other people HAVE had their dogs get sick from the bacteria in raw meat. I don't know what to think! [&:]

I think a dog could get sick from the bacteria in food if their immune system is compromised for some other reason.
I feed Ella raw and I obviously feel that the possible good consequences of raw outweigh the possible good from kibble.
I fear her choking on kibble more than I do raw. I fear what the kibble is going to do to her teeth. I fear what is unnecessarily added to kibble.

Ella's coat shines, she has practically NO smell to her AT ALL.
Her poop is healthier and smaller. It has no smell to it.
Her eyes shine and she is energetic.

     Luvntzus; Have you ever tasted the kibble you feed your dog? I taste the kibble I feed Jessie and the only one that seems to have any real taste at all is Eagle Pack Fish, and it has a strong fishy taste.[:'(]  Jessie has never been finicky like Gingerbread ( larger dogs usually aren't), but I add some cooked meat to her dinner every day to give her some fresh food and to give her more protein. She always eats that meal with more enthusiasm than her breakfast, although her breakfast disappears quickly too.
   Since joining i-dog and learning more about raw and homecooked food I have been thinking about home cooking all her food and have recently gotten some booklets from Monica Segal, one of which has several recipes, each one for a specific weight category. The recipes have several ingredients and have to be followed precisely, and you cannot feed more or less than 10% of the recipe or your dog will either be getting too much or not enough of certain nutrients. If you're interested, she also has a raw feeding booklet. Unfortunately I can't use the cooked recipes for Jessie because of the calories; she gains weight if she has over 900 calories a day and the recipe for her weight class is about 1400 calories so if I'm going to feed her cooked meals I'm going to have to arrange a consultation with Monica Segal. If you decide to cook for Gingerbread you could prepare the week's food at one time and freeze the daily portions seperately; that's what I do for Jessie's meat.
    Concerning the safety of raw food I don't know much but am concerned about parasites like toxoplasmosis; freezing seems to kill parasitic cysts but the freezer temperature affects how long the meat needs to be frozen to kill the cysts;        [linkhttp://www.crvetcenter.com/images/Newsletters/crvcnewsletterDec02p1.pdf]http://www.crvetcenter.com/images/Newsletters/crvcnewsletterDec02p1.pdf[/link] .    Here are links to 2 newsletters by Monica Segal that stress the importance of carefully balancing a raw diet;
[linkhttp://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-11NL.php]http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-11NL.php[/link] ,        
[linkhttp://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-01NL.php]http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-01NL.php[/link];  
scroll down to the 'myth of the month".   There are 2 times where I'm about 100% sure that Jessie got mucousy diarrhea from eating raw meat; both incidences happened the day after she was fed some raw meat, and she had been getting some raw meat for a while so it wasn't something new to her.
   Concerning premades; have you heard about the Honest Kitchen;    [linkhttp://www.thehonestkitchen.com/]http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/[/link]  ;  thier meat is dehydrated at a temperature which kills bacteria but maintains most nutrients and thier other ingredients are dehydrated at 104 degrees so they are considered raw.  I'm considering the one called Preference to supplement the EP;   it's grain free and you can add whatever meat you want to it, raw or cooked, adjusting the amount of meat to premix according to your dog's needs;       [linkhttp://www.thehonestkitchen.com/preference.htm]http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/preference.htm[/link].

     As far as kibble is concerned call me crazy but  I personally think that there are many excellent kibbles that dogs can thrive on and believe that many companies spend a lot of money and time on research and  do thier best to make a product that is nutritionally sound. 

Luvntzus-
My Shih Tzu was much like yours--never really ate kibble with any enthusiasm.  He also had the worst stools and no real weight gain while eating kibble.  He has IBS and Colitis which was excacerbated by kibble--even the grain-free.  I started him on a home cooked diet, then to all canned food, and have since gone to a  pre-made raw diet.  He eats the Nature's Variety medallions, Northwest Naturals, and Stella & Chewy's.  Loves them all, and can eat all protein sources.  I, still on occasion, feed Nature's Variety canned formulas--they are as good as home cooked, but easier---95% meat, no grain, and they smell great.  I tried the EVO canned, but for some reason, he won't touch them--go figure.
If you want to try homecooked, there are some great recipes on the B-Naturals web site in the Newsletter Directory.
I also agree with Chewbecca--a dog can get sick from bacteria in any food--be it raw or cooked, if their immune system is compromised in some way.
Since making the switch, my guy's stools have been firm for the first time and have remained so for 2+ years with no flare-ups of IBS or Colitis.
 

I think of a lot of things when I consider my feeding approach choices:

Home prepared of any kind - dogs DO have a wide optimum nutritional range - compared to say, a sheep, where a matter of too many micrograms per day of copper will kill them within a year, or too little selenium OR too much will kill them within months. Raising sheep really makes you a label reader and sensitive to the micronutrient values of every food source. Kibble/commercial specialty feed is a new concept in dog caretaking. It's a marvelous thing and has changed the lives of millions of dogs owned by people around the poverty line. The lean starving dog skulking outside the shack is an image relegated to the past, the context of neglect, and to third world countries.

However, I'm really convinced that dogs still benefit most from fresh foods. Raw or cooked, the less that meat is processed the better, for most dogs. I don't think cooked is terrible as long as it's done right - cooked meals have to be more carefully balanced than raw, I think. This is a belief based on conversations with vets and research biologists (one heads the immunology department at NIH and does research on protein absorbtion) I know who have looked into the question themselves and apply the principles to their own feeding practices. But then you balance the risks associated with raw with that inconvenience of cooking properly balanced meals. I feel it's a wash, there.

I've seen really sick dogs benefit from my approach, and I manage very high-performance dogs with my approach. I've compromised on the convenience factor by incorporating premium kibble, and I've compromised on some safety issues by lightly cooking store bought eggs and ground meats when I'm forced to use them. I've compromised on the "prey model" I feel would be ideal, with a high rate of rotation and bringing in exotic meats whenever I can afford them, or by raising my own.

I think the best way to avoid staying awake o' nights worrying about it is to remember that if you are offering a proper variety and have done your homework (ie, don't just plunk down a hunk o' meat every day and hope for the best), your dog will benefit from your attention to its diet and any way you can incorporate fresh products.

I mean, look at Sandra - she feeds that awful Purina and adds all those goodies and look at how great her dogs do - I'M JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!! I'd never have a go at Purina - I used it myself for a while. Heck, I've got a friend who feeds feed store generic brand plus whole chickens and "bull nuts" and her dogs work hard, well into their teens and live into their late teens.

the key to optimal nutrition is to feed a wide variety of species-appropriate fresh foods. Kibble is in complete opposition to this principle-- sure isn't fresh. No variety. Lots of grain in it, which sure isn't species-appropriate.
 
Dogs that are used to eating fresh foods, including raw meats and raw bones, don't get digestive upsets or get sick from eating weird things. It's your kibble-fed dog who sneaks into the trash  or eats a dead squirrel that gets sick.
 
I highly recommend Monica Segal's little recipe books. Cheap, simple, easy to follow, one for any type of diet (raw, cooked, or mixed) you care to follow.

the key to optimal nutrition is to feed a wide variety of species-appropriate fresh foods. Kibble is in complete opposition to this principle-- sure isn't fresh. No variety. Lots of grain in it, which sure isn't species-appropriate.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I agree with you but let's not characterize all kibble as high grain.  The vast majority is for sure and my guess would be > 99% of what is sold in the U.S. is so it is a valid generalization overall but not among those on this forum.
 
There are those of us who are not willing/able to go all raw or cooked for time/convenience but believe a higher protein and low to no grain kibble is a reasonable comprimise.

My Chi Blackjack has been a battle to get to eat. He will like a certain food for a week then never touch it again. He is only  3 pounds so it is importnant to me that he eats. I have tried a varierity of kibble and canned. Last week I  made a switch to nature's Variety Frozen Medallions (chicken and turkey) . I have never seen him eat so happily before! He Cleans his plate! I also like that there is different flavors, so he can get a varierity.

Thhis may be a route to go with... with a small dog it shouldn't be too pricey and I find it really easy to handle.