"Raw Meat: A Dangerous Fad"

ORIGINAL: ron2

An animal that can eat more than one food source is likely to survive longer, (possibly, better) than one that tends to eat just one thing.  Again, evolution is not perfect. It's more a matter of statistics. The more adaptable a species, the greater it's chances of survival.

This is completely true.  Its apparent with lots of endangered species.  The panda is one that is on the verge of extinction because it cannot eat anything besides bamboo naturally.  They experiment with other food sources to see if that will help but so far no real luck.  An animal that is running out of natural habitat can only move if they can adapt to the new area in which they are placed.  For instance you could not release Koalas in Canada because there would be no food for them.  Coyotes can survive about anywhere because they thrive on human interference.  A plowed field provides excellent hunting grounds for coyotes.  City dumpsters are also great for them.  Hence the overpopulation of coyotes.

Number one rule in being a predator:  The meal must provide move energy than what is needed to catch and metabolize it.

In addition they do not turn down what is right there in front of them.  If they have to hunt, they hunt the weak and sick first because it cost less energy.  They will steal a kill from a lesser animal before killing for themselves.  A pile of dogfood is easier than catching a rabbit.  No true predator is going to turn it down.  Our domesticated dogs will hunt for the fun of it because their instinct is supressed.  Its different if they have to do it to survive.

C'mon Dyan,i was kidding [] I was trying to be lighthearted [X(]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,excuse me Christine, I forgot to laugh!
 

If you can't feed raw meat bones on an empty stomach then how do people like Lauri who feed 100% raw NOT kill their dogs?

        As I said in my last post, a lot of people feed raw bones without any problems, and the risk from injury is small, but it's important to realize it does exist :
                     [linkhttp://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html[/link]
 
  Wolves and other wild canids pass the bones they injest wrapped in the hair and skin of the animal they were feeding on, which protects their intestines and stomach fron injury. Because we do not afford our dogs the same type of protection when feeding them bones, I don't think we can say that it is perfectly safe to feed them bones because wolves eat bones and don't have problems with  them.
                    

 
 
 
 
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I think in the wild the animals that are killed are usually older animals.  At least the bigger ones.  As an animal ages its bones get more and more brittle.  The meat also gets tougher.  So for the most part what we would feed our dogs is younger meat as that is what is available.  The bones aren't as brittle, also we watch our dogs eat.  They eat more slowly on a whole that their wild ancestors.  A wolf in the wild has to eat as quickly as possible in order to get its share.  Our dogs can take thier time as they are secure in the knowledge that food is always plentiful.  And I have wondered, do wolves bred and raised in captivity get bigger than their often times malnourished brothers in the wild?

We could do a simple comparison.
 
Wolf: lifespan 4 to 8 years, eating an old or sick deer every 1 to 3 weeks.
 
Dog: lifespan 8 to 20 years, averaging 14 to 16 years, eating kibble, usually Purina, Eukanuba, Science Diet, or Iams.
 
There isn't a central source of info on wolves dying from bone obstruction, though it may happen. They usually die of interaction with man or starvation/malnutrition, before they can even suffer systemic problems from numerous parasitic infections. They don't live long enough to suffer geriatric ailments.
 
Dogs can live long enough to suffer geriatric ailments, eating something less than "premium" but more constant than the "wild dog" diet.
 

   As I said in my last post, a lot of people feed raw bones without any problems, and the risk from injury is small, but it's important to realize it does exist

 
I think this statement says it all. Especially new people that come to these boards and read all about raw bones. Most are like me who thought that you could NEVER feed a chicken bone and who would have ever thought of raw,,, but then they learn that they can in fact,  feed their dog raw bones including raw chicken bones... and go ahead thinking its perfectly safe. Same thing with feeding raw in general.    I think everyone has to be aware that there is a danger and there is possibilities of  toxic effects, broken teeth and bone fragments causing blockage.
If we are to warn about the dangers of grocery store food, we need to address raw and bones also.   

I agree. There is danger in choking on a bone, there is danger in choking on kibble, there is danger of the dog getting hit in traffic. As I recall, everyone here is extremely careful in feeding bones to their dog. Mine chews on twigs. That's what he's doing in the avatar. He's not to interested in chewing on bones (I have tried before). Once he has pulled the meat off of it, he's done with it.

Does eating raw meat up a dogs prey drive?  I've heard it can.  But my dog lays in the back with the chickadees pecking all around him.

Edit it add:  I dont want to up his prey drive, just wondering.

Also, and I inadvertantly posted this in another thread, I have seen x-rays of dogs requiring emergency surgery for bone obstruction/perforation. Not always a case of owner-fed RMB. Many times, a dog ran off to the woods and killed and ate a small animal, as would a wolf. Unlike the wolf, the dog could not handle the bone through its system , like a wolf can.
 
But people here seemed to have not had a problem with supervised RMBs.
 

I feed my dogs a lot of raw meaty bones, and I've NEVER seen a "chunk" of bone in the poop. Ever. Poop after a bone-filled meal is a white chalky sort of stuff. Now, sometimes they do puke up bone fragments. Usually in the early morning after an evening meal that included hard beef bones in some way. I assume those were chunks they ingested, the stomach couldn't soften them sufficiently, so they were tossed out the other exit.

I've seen chunks of bone in my dogs poop.  But it doesnt look sharp.  More lumpy.  Thats when I know I've left his bone with him for too long.  Mind you this is from rec bones not RMB.  I've never noticed this with his chicken legs or backs before.

I agree. There is danger in choking on a bone, there is danger in choking on kibble, there is danger of the dog getting hit in traffic.

At the risk of sounding like I'm arguing against raw bones, Ron, is this a fair comparison?   I can't figure it to be at all.  Sure if we let our dogs out without being leashed close to a street, he can die in traffic.     I know that they can choke on anything including kibble, but I can't really imagine that if your dog is fed the size kibble that is not too big for him, such as my sons GF chi, she is very careful about her size (unfortunately--not the brand)  unless they just plain eat way too fast. But a dog can be chewing on a bone and unless you are watching very carefully, you don't know if he chewed off a piece or not, and you sure don't know if its sharp or not.
Our old Dane/shepherd Cindy, and our Ollie always loved sticks to chew. Cindy used to go hunting in my back yard that used to be an nursery, and drag up dead whole little trees.   And I have seen her couch up or choke on the bark from them.

   I think the people here that feed RMB's are very good at supervising their dogs while they are chewing the bones and are careful about what types of bones are fed as part of their diet as well as recreational bones, but IMO you can't say it's safe because wolves eat bones and do fine, because dogs aren't provided the natural buffer of skin and hair from a kill as wolves are. Perhaps it can be compared to riding a bike without a helmet. It's unlikely you will have an accident and suffer a head injury, but it could happen.