"Raw Meat: A Dangerous Fad"

ORIGINAL: ron2

Dr. Billinghurst has a B.S. in animal sciences. He is Australian an perhaps their education requirements are different. He is not a certified vet in the american sense but he may have the right credentials for the land Down Under. Many people have had anecdotal success with his BARF method

I did a little research;

I did a little searching; he graduated with honors in veterinary science from Sydney University in 1976 and has worked since then as a veterinary surgeon. http://www.barfworld.com/html/dr_billinghurst/meet.shtml)
Of course that's just his website.  But a further search for his credentials did not find any accusatiosn of fraud.

Paula

I saw a couple of comments on preferences.  I would suggest that wild canids will eat what is most easily available.  The species (all of them actually) are designed to conserve energy.  So if a preditor found available commercial food they would eat it.  If they find carrion they eat it,  if they can steal it - they eat it.  I feed commercial and I have friends who swear by raw.  I will likely mix the two in the future.  My only reason for the post was to respond to that one set of statements about what wild canids will choose to eat.

I had mentioned that website before and received much the same reception. Most people who are feeding raw have been feeding it around 6 to 8 years, with the exception of Christine. Most vets involved in the nutrition debate have been involved in nutrition for over twenty years.
 
Here are some things to consider. Dogs have been eating whatever man gives them, cooked or not, for approx 100,000 years. Wild canids have not. As for the wild dog diet of free-hunting, it often involves starving for a week or two and then being able to kill the oldest and sickest of the herd. When a canid is brought in for rehab or to treat an injury, they are often malnourished. Some rehabs feed them kibble for a while, to re-balance their immune system.
 
Canis lupus ( Gray Wolf) and canis lupus occidentalis (Timber Wolf) are endangered species with dangerously low populations, needing our protection. Dogs are everywhere, in spite of "crappy commercial" food.
 
The average lifespan of a wild canid is between 4 and 8 years. The average lifspan of a domesticated dog is 8 to 16 years. Dogs can do great on a raw diet for most of their lives not because the diet is all that healthy but because their bodies can be extremely adaptable to some nutrient deficiencies. Dogs have also lived a long time on some truly crappy commercial food for the same reason.
 
There is a danger of choking on a bone fragment. There is a danger of choking on a piece of kibble. There is a danger of getting squashed by a Kenworth pulling 40 tons if you let your dog out to free hunt, as their ancestors did.
 
The other danger of raw is not so much for the dogs as it is the humans. Maybe the dog doesn't suffer a parasitic infection this time. Maybe the meat you've bought is free of e. coli. But this and other parasites do survive intact in dog saliva and stool. The easiest, surest way to kill e. coli or salmonella is to expose it to high heat, i.e., cooking.
 
If you allow your dog to free hunt as a wild dog would and it is scavenging a 3 day old kill, how is that any different than eating byproduct in commercial food?
 
Many wild canids brought in for treatment, etc, are parasitic. They will have infections sometime from botfly from eating deer. Some form of mange. Malnourished. Flea-infested and heartworm-infested. That's the life of a wild canid. And there are some differences between wolf and dog, other than appearance.
 
In the end, whatever works for your dog. If they are receiving the nutrients they require and are not suffering ill effects from the diet, then it is working.
 

I was not accusing him of fraud. I'm saying that requirements in another country may different than requirements in the U.S. What has bothered most vets about him was statements attributed to him about what constitutes vet education in America. Some of it might have been accurate but unless you had been through the education system at the time in question, you would be speaking second hand.
 

Ron,

I wasn't saying you were accusing him of fraud but I guess I was a little offended because it sounded like you were comparing Australia's education system to the US and assumed ti lacking. That may not have been your attempt and all about my hypersensitivity to that kind of thing. But the man's a vet. He went to vet school, a post bacculareate program (his bs is in ag sci) and is a praticing vet.

Paula

Secondhandranch and others like it all seem to have an agenda,in the formers case it's selling commercial food
 
I must be missing something here because I just opened almost every page on this site and can't find what they are selling.  
 
I'm not positive that this site would change my mind as to what I was feeding my dog, but it is very interesting,,, espescially the section where Mike Ferreira has written about his knowledge of the wolf, both in the wild and captive born.
I do think this site has provided enough reputable links to make it worthwhile to at least read to keep an open mind.
 

This is what my comment was all about.
 

Advocates of a raw meat diet feel that it's "bringing your dog back to a more natural style of living". None of the people who are promoting a raw meat diet (that I have encountered) have actually had contact with a wild dog. Dr. Billinghurst admittedly has never done any studies on wolves or wild dogs. I have. I have a wolf sanctuary, and the truth is that wild-born wolves taken into captivity are typically malnourished. Most people *assume* that because wild dogs don't have the opportunity to cook their food, that nature has set up the perfect diet for them. This is simply not true. We know from their carcasses that they die of splintered fowl bones and have very bad dentalia (dental problems). 

 
My next question is, are they taking healthy or unhealthy wild animals into their ranch? If they are taken supposidly "healthy" animals, then they are doing so illegally. If they are taking in sick/injured animals... to their statement, I say, I'm not surprised they are of poor health. But, of course, this information is not said. For all we know, the wild dogs he is refering to have been living for months on garbage due to a crippling injury... which would, of course, explain the poor teeth and malnourishment.
 
I stand by my statement... evolution really doesn't make "mistakes." If raw bones and meat were bad for wild canids, they wouldn't have evolved that diet.
 
 
This all aside, I cannot find a single documentation about how he went about his research. All I see is a claim of an 11 year independant study. Before I even consider what he has to say, I want to see this documentation. Anybody trying to proove their case would present it all or give every source. Or, at least, make an effort.
 
 
 

Suprised no one's posted this yet:
 
[linkhttp://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html]http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html[/link]
 
 

I don't know, maybe everyone is going to get mad with me.  I'm not for or against raw, commercial or homemade.  I think everyone should do whatever they are comfortable with and works for their pet. 
 
However, I'm amazed at how some people who feed a raw diet think they are feeding just as an animal would eat in the wild.  Just because you give raw bones and raw meat does not mean they are getting a diet just like they would get in the wild.  They would eat lots of stuff they shouldn't plus any berries, etc. they came across. 

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I don't know, maybe everyone is going to get mad with me. I'm not for or against raw, commercial or homemade. I think everyone should do whatever they are comfortable with and works for their pet.

However, I'm amazed at how some people who feed a raw diet think they are feeding just as an animal would eat in the wild. Just because you give raw bones and raw meat does not mean they are getting a diet just like they would get in the wild. They would eat lots of stuff they shouldn't plus any berries, etc. they came across.

I'm right there with you. Canines in the the wild eat much more than just meat, and so do dogs. I'm also very leery of giving my dog bones that could splinter, raw or not, and dogs get obstructions with raw bones, too, if they gulp a splinter.

From attending vet classes in college and from going to the fish and game's parasite pages for Alaska, I'd never give Sofia raw wild meat. Canines are often the other host for parasites that infect herbivores.

Sofia is a chewer and grinds up her raw, frozen chicken thigh. If she were a gulper I'd never give her a bone of any kind. Of course I'd never give her a cooked bone of any kind.

It's okay if any of you want to give your dogs raw bones, and feed raw, and all that. It's really your choice and I really make no judgements. I just don't feel comfortable with it. If I lost Sofia to an obstruction, or gave her some awful parasite that killed her, I'd never forgive myself.

The argument that dogs and wolves are evolved to eat this diet isn't quite accurate. Dogs and wolves are different species, for one. Secondly, animals in the wild are not perfectly evolved. Evolution is an ongoing process.

For instance, I used to be a docent and an assistant keeper at the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle. The material on the apes was fascinating. Gibbons are arboreal apes that swing madly and expertly through the trees, and are the extremely vocal whooping ones you often hear at the zoo and in movies. There is no doubt these guys are superbly evolved to swing through the trees. A study was done, a survey, where gibbons were caught and examined. About 20% of these gibbons had healed shoulder or arm fractures (or both!). In other words, sometimes they went for a leap to grab a branch of vine and MISSED! They fell and managed to survive. The study concluded that another 10% didn't survive and died of their injuries. That meant 30% of the gibbons, though evolved for leaping crazily through the trees in the most amazing manner, still died.

However, I'm amazed at how some people who feed a raw diet think they are feeding just as an animal would eat in the wild. Just because you give raw bones and raw meat does not mean they are getting a diet just like they would get in the wild. They would eat lots of stuff they shouldn't plus any berries, etc. they came across.

You won't get any resistance from me.

Paula

Now I'm not for or against either raw or commercial.  I give Crusher a chicken leg once a week or so and a good raw bone for chewing on.  But I do it because he loves it.  And because I have not heard that it could harm him. (or at least more that it wouldn't harm him)

However I do think that we have to remember that our animals are not wild animals.  They have been altered to fit into our lifestyle.  Physically altered.  I highly doubt that a Shih Tzu would have evolved into the dog it is today without the help of Man.  Wild dogs would not likely resemble an Old English Sheepdog naturally.  So I wonder if it is possible if we have indeed altered them to a point of changing what they can and cannot safely consume.  Man once lived on raw meat too but I tend to think that if we were forced to eat it raw nowadays, all the time, we may get more than an upset stomach.

For all I know, Australian standards are higher. I don't know enough about the differences between the two countries. I am sure he is well qualified in Australia.

Amen, Willow. I was going to say something like that.
 

Huskymom yes we have changed the outside of our dogs,but we will never be able to change their insides.My shih-tzu's digestive tract is very similar,if not the same as a wolf.Our domestic dogs are able to mate with wolves,this is enough proof for me that they are not that far removed []

There are plenty of people who live on a strictly raw diet,meat included,ever tried steak tartar,blech! My mum routinely samples raw hamburger meat(checks seasoning) before cooking it,she's never been sick a day in her life.