Human(ish) Grade Dog Food

RFD, I appreciate your trying to educate dog owners out there. I am on dog food chat forum, where I see you frequently. I was persuaded by you and others to try your way of raw feeding. It sounds fantastic and sensible.. When it comes to feeding dogs, I listen to and RESPECT what the dog is telling me. One lost coat so much, it was very thin. 2 broke teeth, so I had to have 2 slab fractures removed which cost me close to $600. Another went from alternating explosive diarrhea to rock hard, difficult to pass stool. Things improved when I added veggies and some potato. They could pass stool comfortably again. I've fed raw before... Volhard, barf, premixes, and I almost always end up back on kibble plus raw or cooked toppers. For one, because it works for them. For two, I am a realist and have plenty of other obligations. Some raw feeders think that it's dog abuse if they are not fed grass fed free range meats. I mean, come on! I love them, but they're dogs! The grass fed free range food will be fed to my human kids first! Anyway, I have just as much a soap box to use some common sense when feeding animals as you do about feeding only meat, bones and organs. Bottom line is to listen to the dog. And you are preaching to the choir here, for the most part.

kpwlee

I've never seen an ad for the kibble I feed. In addition, I am not a person that pays any attention to ads. I feed it because it has the ingredients & composition I want. It's expensive, I wish it were cheaper but I use it because my dog does very well on it.

If I had nothing better to do - thankfully I do- I would go 'find' facts to counter your facts. I will admit to laughing at your comment that you are above science. You come across as arrogant, dismissive and a zealot.

No one has attacked raw feeding yet you pound people as ignorant fools for feeding kibble. Since you don't consider feelings, I will not consider yours.

I am glad you are happy with how you feed your dogs and know that all the folks that have responded in this thread feed their animals well too.

I do have to comment that your comment about my friends WORKING bc's being obese was purely assinine. Since you rely on facts I wonder where you saw them? And how you assessed their weight? Sorry but your arrogance and ignorance really showed itself on that one. It would be darn hard to have an obese WORKING bc. But hey you clearly are omniscient

Karen, very well said!

Liesje

Most of my dogs' raw diet comes from venison.  This is not purchased venison but venison shot by people I know (and most do their own butchering/processing).  In some ways this is healthier since I don't have to worry about agriculture that is being fed antibiotics or plumped up with unhealthy feed or kept in disgusting living conditions.  My dogs are eating wild animals that ate a wild, natural diet and no one I know would shoot and bother processing a sick looking deer. 

I envy you so much.  You are feeding your dog the gold standard when you are feeding wild venison. There is no better food. I feed all that I can beg off my hunter friends. If I had an unlimited supply of venison, I would be happy if I fed nothing else and you know how big I am on variety but venison just can't be beat. It contains everything a dog needs to be healthy without all the bad stuff.

Most of the meat I feed my dogs are frozen because I buy in bulk and buy a month or more worth of food at a time. I will feed unfrozen stuff for a few days  after I bring it home.  Then its frozen stuff (thawed before feeding) for a long time.

I don't eat much venison myself simply because I want to give all I can get to my animals.

Liesje

I'm feeding dogs, not mashing it up and feeding it to an infant.

You know feeding nasty meat is no big deal to me but I am pretty sure that most people wouldn't feed that stuff to their dogs if they knew how nasty it is and it's not a very good quality meat before it gets all nasty and stinky and rotten.

Liesje

And the truck my family uses to transport fresh killed deer is not refrigerated either.  You said yourself that you don't take special precautions with meat so why would they?

But you are transporting your deer during the cold winter months.  A lot of this kibble meat gets transported in July and August.  I remember a news story I saw about 5 or 6 years ago about one of those trucks transporting meat to be used in dog food that turned over spilling its load all over the road.  The highway department had to hire an outside company to clean up the mess because their own employees refused to get that close to the stinky stuff. :)  I'm thinking it was chicken refuse but I can't remember for sure.  I am also thinking it was in Mass. or somewhere near there.

Liesje

And you'd probably be aghast at the diet I eat and yet I am thin, healthy, in shape, and all of my bloodwork is in the optimal range.

Thats great, however there is a misconception I want to point out.  Many people tell me about some junk kibble they feed their dogs and think it is ok because the dog's bloodwork comes back normal.  Bloodwork is not a measure of how good or nutritious a diet is.  Bloodwork is a snapshot of how well some of the dog's organs are working at that very instant.  Most people don't even know that you should fast the dog before the bloodwork is done.  I'm glad you are healthy but I will warn you if you don't eat healthy, eventually it will catch up with you.

Liesje

I would expect nothing different...

I would prefer to feed food that actually looks like what it is.  

Liesje

I've never contacted a kibble company about anything so I guess I don't know what propaganda you are referring to.

I'm talking about the advertising you see on-line, on TV, on the radio, in newspapers, in magazines and on billboards.

Liesje

I simply measure my DOG'S health and decide whether or not a certain type of food is working, same thing I do for myself.

How do you measure their health?  Most people look at the coat and stools and if those look good, they think their dog is healthy.  Again, the junk food you eat yourself will catch up with you.  Take it from someone who knows ... who has been there, done that.

Liesje

I don't have time to worry about conspiracy theories and marketing propaganda.

When did I mention a conspiracy?  As long as you understand that marketing & advertising ARE propaganda, then you are ok.  You'd be surprised at the number of people who think advertising MUST be true by law.

kpwlee

I will admit to laughing at your comment that you are above science.

Like many other people, you read things into my statements that just aren't there, probably because you wish so badly that I would say something that is wrong.  I have never said that anything I say is above science.  I say (and imply) that my statements ARE science.  I use logic and reason for my arguments and don't use feelings as feelings are most often incorrect.

kpwlee

You come across as arrogant, dismissive and a zealot.

Many people have trouble differentiating between, some one who is knowlegable and confident as oppposed to arrogant and dismissive.  It's probably not too far from accurate when you call me a zealot.  That is a person with zeal (enthusiastic dilligence).  I firmly believe without exception that a prey model raw diet is the healthiest alternative for feeding a dog.  I feel just as strongly that highly processed carb based kibble is the root of the poor health of todays dogs.  The largest cause of allergies, IBD, IBS, pancreatic problems, liver problems, digestive problems, sensitive stomachs, obese dogs, etc.

kpwlee

No one has attacked raw feeding yet you pound people as ignorant fools for feeding kibble

I have never used those words but I am sure that if more people were more knowlegable about the subject, fewer people would be feeding commercial dog food, particularly kibble.  Sit outside a Walmart one day and watch the bags of Ol' Roy stream out the doors.  How many of those people carrying it do you think could name one ingredient in the bag?

kpwlee

Since you don't consider feelings, I will not consider yours.

Don't take a second worrying about my feelings.  I have been having these discussions for 11 years.  I know how some people react and hate reading my message.  You won't hurt my feelings at all. :)

kpwlee

I do have to comment that your comment about my friends WORKING bc's being obese was purely assinine. Since you rely on facts I wonder where you saw them? And how you assessed their weight? Sorry but your arrogance and ignorance really showed itself on that one. It would be darn hard to have an obese WORKING bc. But hey you clearly are omniscient

HA!  I have written a LOT of statements in the last 2 days.  I am bound to make one or two mistakes.  If I remember correctly, you stated that they feed a high carb kibble.  Carbs produce fat.  The greatest majority of dogs in this country are over weight.  I've seen agility dogs who are fat.  Of course I have never seen your friend's dogs and was commenting based on the commonality of dogs in general, even some working dogs.

JackieG

I've seen nothing you've posted that is new or that I haven't known for many years. 

You're 100% correct.  There is nothing new in anything I say.  I have personally been saying them for 11 years.  That doesn't mean is isn't fact.

JackieG

I'm all about facts too and one fact is very evident in your posts and that's that you feel attacked and defensive for some reason when people are simply discussing findings that you disagree with.

I don't know where you get that I feel attacked or defensive.  When people discuss findings that I disagree with I simply point out that the findings are wrong, why they are wrong and what is correct.  I don't feel attacked and simply pointing out those things doesn't make me defensive.  It just means I'm trying to correct the record. I do have a problem in that I can't allow falacies just stand there without correcting them. :)

RFD said:  "if more people were more knowlegable about the subject, fewer people would be feeding commercial dog food, particularly kibble. Sit outside a Walmart one day and watch the bags of Ol' Roy stream out the doors. How many of those people carrying it do you think could name one ingredient in the bag?"

I couldn't agree more with you there!  I cringe at the thought of the poor dogs who eat the grocery store, walmart, cheapo feed store feeds.  I personally am anti grain with the exception of rice, for certain dogs with touchy tummies, it's pretty gentle and digestible.

shamrockmommy

One lost coat so much, it was very thin. 2 broke teeth, so I had to have 2 slab fractures removed which cost me close to $600. Another went from alternating explosive diarrhea to rock hard, difficult to pass stool. Things improved when I added veggies and some potato. They could pass stool comfortably again. I've fed raw before... Volhard, barf, premixes, and I almost always end up back on kibble plus raw or cooked toppers.

Yes I remember you and remember we had a conversation about all your problems but I don't remember the conversations.  You obviously need some help feeding raw and I offered to help you with feeding a proper raw diet because obvoiusly you are doing something wrong.  Now some one will jump in and say, "He claims that anyone who has a dog who can handle raw is doing it wrong."  What I will say is that anyone who has this many dogs having a problem definately is doing something wrong.  Again, I will be glad to help you switch your dogs to a raw diet in a way that they will all do good.  I have helped hundreds of people feed raw and they all were able to be successful.  The last time I offered, I never heard from you.  If you wish to get in touch with me, I will still be glad to help.

shamrockmommy

I am a realist and have plenty of other obligations. Some raw feeders think that it's dog abuse if they are not fed grass fed free range meats. I mean, come on! I love them, but they're dogs!

There are people who feel that way and they are probably right but I have never fed grassfed meat.  I don't think I have ever eaten any myself.

shamrockmommy

I couldn't agree more with you there!  I cringe at the thought of the poor dogs who eat the grocery store, walmart, cheapo feed store feeds.  I personally am anti grain with the exception of rice, for certain dogs with touchy tummies, it's pretty gentle and digestible.

Cool.  I really don't advocate feeding rice to settle a stomach.  I have found that chicken backs are more appropriate.

I spent way too much time on here yesterday and looks like today is heading the same way but I just don't have any more time today and the next few days.  I'll be back when I have time. :)  Y'all have fun. :)

RawFedDogs

How do you measure their health?  Most people look at the coat and stools and if those look good, they think their dog is healthy.

 

Well since you seem to know me and "most people" so well, I almost shouldn't bother responding, but FWIW I measure health based on:

• weight
• coat and skin - shiny coat, strong and lush top coat, correct coat for the breed, smell, not too dry and not too oily, no hotspots
  
• teeth/mouth - teeth that do not need dental intervention or cleaning, lack of horrid breath
• eyes and ears - clean, clear, lack of discharge and/or smell
• I x-ray hips and elbows at 7 months and certify hips and elbows at 24 months and also check the spine
• Dodds Thyroid 5 panel
• DM clear/normal - though this is genetic so diet would not matter but if a dog came back carrier or at risk I would certainly adjust the diet with that in mind
• feet - pads of the feet are strong and healthy (do not crack and bleed even when running 6-12 miles on pavement and/or doing flyball), nails are black (correct for the breed) and strong, not brittle and cracking
• stool - small amount, firm, not horribly smelly, breaks down quickly 
• overall energy and activity level - dog is agile, able to do work such as AD test (12 mile run), 8 hour days of flyball etc
• dog only goes to the vet for 3 year rabies vaccines and other things I can't/won't do at home (blood test for heartworm annually, collection for AI, x-rays, etc)

Like Karen said, I've never seen an advertisement for the kibble I use (and I'm pretty sure we don't use the same thing).

 

RawFedDogs

kpwlee

I know of someone who discovered the only way they could keep their working border collies at a decent weight was to add carbs. No matter how much raw they were fed they were underweight during high work times. Adding potatoes, sweet potatoes, and the evil corn they dogs were able to maintain a healthy weight.

I would say that they don't know what their dogs should look like.  There are so many obese dogs in this country that most people who see a dog of the proper build think he is emaciated.  They think dogs should actually be that fat.  You said no matter how much raw they were fed, they were underweight.  Think about that.  You can feed enough of anything and make a dog fat.  However, when you feed a lot of protein (muscle meat) you build muscle.  When you feed carbs you build fat.  Thats just a fact of life.  You can't build muscle with carbs.  You ever see a body builder eat a lot of carbs?  A NFL player?  Heck no.  They eat a diet of almost exclusively steaks with very few carbs.  They don't want fat, they want muscle.  So if your friends dogs were adding weight, they were adding fat which is almost never desirable.

 

 

RawFedDogs

HA!  I have written a LOT of statements in the last 2 days.  I am bound to make one or two mistakes.  If I remember correctly, you stated that they feed a high carb kibble.  Carbs produce fat.

 

Since you couldn't be bothered to read what you wrote. They were not fed kibble, they ate raw. 

 

RawFedDogs

kpwlee:

You come across as arrogant, dismissive and a zealot.

Many people have trouble differentiating between, some one who is knowlegable and confident as oppposed to arrogant and dismissive.

 As for my assessment that you are arrogant - this shows an excellent example. You assume that my friend who has a working sheep farm for 30+ yrs and has working stock BC's and LGD's doesn't know what a healthy dog looks like and despite my stating she fed raw you assumed they ate kibble.

You are also assuming that we are all little sheep feeding Beneful because we are too ignorant to learn anything about canine nutrition and we watch TV to determine what we should buy and eat. Again that's arrogance.

You also assume I don't know the meaning of arrogant........... which is fairly arrogant

You severely underestimate the knowledge held by everyone that has posted in this discussion.

 Hmmm once again that seems to fall under the domain of arrogance.

If you would stop assuming people were idiots and that they should just listen to you because you know everything, you would likely have a much more receptive audience. Yes lots of kibble is really poor quality and yes pets and people are horribly overweight and out of shape.

BUT no one on this thread is feeding Old Roy nor have obese pets. Know who you are speaking to and show some respect

 

RawFedDogs

I do have a problem in that I can't allow falacies just stand there without correcting them.

And I have a problem with people who cannot spell correctly when they are trying to impress us with irrefutable knowledge, but I digress. Back to fallacies vs. your facts (which you still have not cited sources for).

Been biting my tongue because arguing over the Internet is worthless. However what you say makes dogs carnivores are just characteristics of most carnivores. that is not the definition of a carnivore. Birds do not have lateral moving jaws or teeth for that matter and many of them are considered omnivores while some are herbivores and some are carnivores. Because you copied something from Wikipedia does not make it scientific fact. Nor does stating it over and over again. The other issue I have with you judgemental arrogant know it all attitude is that many of those people you are complaining about buying food at Walmart may not be able to afford much else. Does that mean they should give up their dogs? I say no. dogs can live on junk food for 15 plus years and give their families all those years of happiness in their otherwise crappy lives. If some 80 yr old man wants to give his best friend ol Roy because that is what his fixed budget allows more power to him. I am not about to sit on my high horse and judge someone whose living situation may be worse than my own. I that would be incredibly callous of me. Get off your high horse and go supply some low income family with food for their pets. that would go a heck of a lot further than spending 11 yrs arguing with people over the internet

Jewlieee

The other issue I have with you judgemental arrogant know it all attitude is that many of those people you are complaining about buying food at Walmart may not be able to afford much else. Does that mean they should give up their dogs? I say no. dogs can live on junk food for 15 plus years and give their families all those years of happiness in their otherwise crappy lives. If some 80 yr old man wants to give his best friend ol Roy because that is what his fixed budget allows more power to him. I am not about to sit on my high horse and judge someone whose living situation may be worse than my own. I that would be incredibly callous of me. Get off your high horse and go supply some low income family with food for their pets. that would go a heck of a lot further than spending 11 yrs arguing with people over the internet

Applauding long and loud! 

I was not doing something wrong. They both broke teeth on chicken thighs. I have shelves of books on raw diets, cooked diets, you name it. My second attempt after fixing their teeth the first time resulted in them chipping their other carnassial on wings lol! Obviously rmbs are not for my dogs. I figured by that time, it was pointless to ask for any more help. I spent some time grinding the rmbs but I just do not have that kind of time... Shrugs. Even so, the girls are well fed, happy, well groomed and have a happy home with opportunities to run, train and have fun. I suppose their diets are "unnatural" but I think they've got it pretty good...