Human(ish) Grade Dog Food

RawFedDogs

Actually I do know more that most everyone including many scientists.  I have spent over 11 years studying this stuff and I know what I'm talking about. 

Where is the proof to back up your facts? Stating "it is a scientific fact" does not make it so. You want others to prove their knowledge. Prove yours.

Really, we are a community of animal lovers, but don't think we are a bunch of idiots. I, for one, don't appreciate being talked down to. The more you try to jam your vast knowledge down our throats and tell us you know more than most everyone, the less we will listen.

RawFedDogs

Actually I do know more that most everyone including many scientists. 

Ok.  You've done nothing to convince me that you know more than most everyone, including many scientists, but you have given us all some valuable insight into your personality. 

Liesje

Exactly.  Like I keep saying I do feed raw (and kibble), but this thread screams "agenda" and that pushes my buttons ;)

The agenda I have is to teach real stuff backed by scientific facts.  Not a bunch of garbage pushed by the dog food marketing departments.  As far as the "non-study" that is the basis of this thread, I have already explained what it actually says in previous posts in this thread.  Many people want to read into it stuff that just isn't there.  Nowhere does this non-study say that dogs should actually eat starch.

I'm not going to comment on all your stuff about your kibble fed dogs.  I haven't fed kibble in over 10 years and there may be some kibbles out today that are somewhat better than what was available 11 years ago. 

However ALL kibbles have some things in common:

1.  Regardless of what their marketing departments say, they are all made from the throw away garbage of the human food processing plants.

2.  None are human grade foods.  The moment the cow or chicken or turkey or lamb or whatever animal leaves the processing plant it is no longer human grade. 

3.  The trucks that transport this material from the processing plant is not refigerated.

4.  The pretty food pictures on the bag have no relationship to the contents of the bag.

5.  Kibble is HIGHLY processed at extreme temperatures.

6.  Many, if not most nutrients are cooked out of the ingredients in the kibble.  Thats the reason you see this long list of nutrients on the ingredients list on the bag.

7.  You will not find a nutritionist anywere that isn't employed by a dog food company that will tell you that processed food is more nutritous than fresh whole food.

8.  If you cut a kibble in half and examine it, you can't identify any of the ingredients because of the high amount of processing.

9.  Kibble is a marketing wonder.  Everyone believes without question whatever these companies tell you.  How smart is that?  Do you do that with automobile companies?  Insurance companies?  Medical companies?  Companies that produce any other product?  Why do kibble compan ies get a pass?  Have you ever seen a study by a kibble company proving anything about their product?

I am going to bow to her superior knowledge, on a topic I really don't care much about. Probably have better chance of arguing with Piper. My last ESS lasted 17 years eating quality processed food. Piper is 13 and looks and acts younger, eating processed food. Feed what you want, they're your dogs. As long as you don't beat them, I really don't care. There is a rescue in Wisconsin feeds vegan to their charges. The cats and dogs survive- angry, try to escape, but survive.

Her qualifications sound intriguing though. She pronounces facts without citing sources or anything. I am not going to vouch for the accuracy of the following statements. For all you know, I made them up. The same as I made up "opportunistic feeders"(which of course means "primarily meat eater but will eat anything close enough to grab".

FDA does not believe raw meat foods for animals are consistent with the goal of protecting the public from significant health risks, particularly when such products are brought into the home and/or used to feed domestic pets; however, we understand that some people prefer to feed these types of diets to their pets.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) make the following statement on their website: Raw diets, especially raw meat diets, are not recommended because of the risk for salmonellosis and other infections that can affect pets and their owners.

In addition, the CDC provided the following statement to the AVMA when the policy was being considered: CDC recommends against feeding raw food to dogs and cats because of the risk of illness to the pet as well as to people living in the household. Do not feed your pet a raw diet. Here is why:

• Raw diets consist of foods such as meat, poultry, milk, and eggs that have not been cooked or treated to remove harmful germs. • These food items can carry harmful bacteria including Salmonella and Campylobacter.

The American College of Veterinary Nutritionists (ACVN), in a FAQ document on its website, makes the following statement: Raw diets, both home-prepared and commercial, have become more popular. Advocates of raw diets claim benefits ranging from improved longevity to superior oral or general health and even disease resolution (especially gastrointestinal disease). Often the benefits of providing natural enzymes and other substances that may be altered or destroyed by cooking are also cited. However, proof for these purported benefits is currently restricted to testimonials, and no published peer-reviewed studies exist to support claims made by raw diet advocates. No studies have examined differences in animals fed raw animal products to those fed any other type of diet (kibble, canned, or home cooked) with the exception of looking at the effects on digestibility. Typically raw meats (but not other uncooked foods like grains or starches) are slightly more digestible than cooked meat.

There are risks and concerns associated with the feeding of raw diets. One of these is the risk of nutritional imbalances, which is a reality for both home-prepared and commercial raw meat diets. Another important risk is related to bacterial or parasitic contamination. Of course, food poisoning is also a major concern for people, and the public health aspects of feeding raw foods to pets cannot be overlooked. Safe and proper handling of raw foods is crucial for reducing the risk, but safety cannot be guaranteed. At this time, the vast majority of purported benefits of feeding raw foods remain unproven, while the risks and consequences have been documented. It is best to discuss the choice of feeding raw foods with your veterinarian so that an informed decision can be made with regard to your pet’s diet.

The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) approved a policy in August 2012 that discourages feeding raw meat to pets. The National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians (NASPHV) and American Association of Feline Practitioners (AAFP) both endorsed the AAHA statement. The policy was developed independently of the AVMA’s position, but was shared with AVMA prior to posting on the website.

sharismom

Where is the proof to back up your facts? Stating "it is a scientific fact" does not make it so. You want others to prove their knowledge. Prove yours.

You are really making it difficult from me NOT to talk down to you.  I said dogs have big mouths, don't have flat teeth, don't have lateral movement of their lower jaw, have a short gut, don't have necessary digestive juices in their saliva to digest plant matter and a few others I can't remember right now.  Which of these do you think is not a fact and needs further proof?  They are all obvious except for the amalyze statement but even omnivore believers don't dispute that.

I don't really care whether or not you listen to me or believe me.  Many people do.  If you don't want to believe what I say, why on earth do you waste your time reading this thread?  What possible motivation could you have?  Possibly you just like to argue and launch personal attacks?

JackieG

Ok.  You've done nothing to convince me that you know more than most everyone, including many scientists, but you have given us all some valuable insight into your personality. 

Since you offer nothing but personal attacks, you are out of facts?  Very few on this thread have really addressed my facts, only that they don't like the way I present them.  Facts are facts regardless of how they are presented.  Dogs are carnivores.  There is no scientific evidence to dispute this.  Only feelings.  Feelings are not facts.

RawFedDogs

If you don't want to believe what I say, why on earth do you waste your time reading this thread?  What possible motivation could you have?  Possibly you just like to argue and launch personal attacks?

I did not launch a personal attack. I asked for scientific proof to back up your "facts". As Doug stated, you have not cited a single source.

RawFedDogs

Since you offer nothing but personal attacks, you are out of facts? 

I've not offered any "facts" in this thread and if you'd been paying attention you'd have noticed that fact.  You seemed to have missed the point I made earlier that NO ONE HERE has argued that there is anything wrong with feeding raw to dogs and many have agreed that it's a healthy diet.  I didn't disagree with that in the other threads either.  What I disagree with is your attitude that anyone who feeds kibble is a puppet of the kibble manufacturers with no power to think or research on their own.  I have no feelings of guilt about feeding my dogs a quality kibble and I have no problem with those who feed raw. 

 Feelings are not facts but they do influence how some people present facts to others and how those facts are absorbed by the audience. 

GREAT!!  I'm going to love this one although it has nothing to do with whether dogs are carnivores rather whether dogs should be fed raw meat.  I have been on discussion groups such as this one for over 11 years.  Most of these groups are devoted exclusively to feeding a raw diet to a dog.  I have read propably well over 100,000 posts on all these groups over the years.  Based on all these discussions plus my own experiences and the experiences of all the people making all these posts, I can say with great confidence that bacteria in raw meat is not a problem.  Salmonella is not a problem with dogs.  No bacteria injested through the mouth is a problem with dogs.  I have over the years from time to time fed my dogs some very rancid meat with no problem.  No vomiting, no diarrhea, no lethargy.  I have fed some meat that smelled so bad I couldn't feed it in the house.  None of my dogs have ever had a problem with it and seem to enjoy the rotten meat more than clean meat.  Two of my dogs ate on a deer carcass laying out in the woods for about 6 months before it was gone.

I take no extra precautions for bacteria in my house.  I don't disinfect the kitchen counter after I feed them.  I wipe it with a paper towel.  I don't clean the floor where they ate their meals.  They clean it themselves.  I have never gotten sick from feeding my dogs a raw diet.  Neither has anyone who has visited my house.  I get face kisses often and sometimes immediately after eating.  I have played in the floor with my dogs and so have my grandchildren age 6 months up to 19 years.  No one ever got sick.  THere are literally 1,000s of raw feeders with like results.

All these things you hear from vets and vet orginazations and government departments are exagurations.  I understand they probably believe what they say but in the real world those things just don't happen.  Most all of these organizations who claim the great dangers of feeding raw get a lot of money from the dog food companies.  What they don't tell you is that all the cautions they give you about feeding a raw diet applies to kibble fed dogs as well. 

Most all of us handle raw meats every day in cooking for our families and no one gets sick from the meat.  Why would feeding the same meat to dogs cause a health problem for the humans? 

There is also the complaint from these same people about lack of balance of a raw diet.  We can all feed our families every day without having a problem balancing the diet but dog food companies would have us believe we are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet.  Balance isn't nearly what it's cracked up to be anyway.  Who balances wild animal's diets?  They seem to do very well, don't you think?

DougB

She pronounces facts without citing sources or anything.

"She" is a he. LOL  Exactly what sources do you need to prove dogs have large mouths, don't have flat teeth, have short guts, don't have leteral movement for their lower jaw?  What facts did I give that you need sources for?  I'll be glad to help you.  Also, all those things you quoted in your post are correct.  I have seen all those things listed many times.  They are all just statements.  None are based on facts or studies.  You didn't make up  "opportunistic feeders" or at least you weren't the first to use it.  I've been seeing that term for years.  That term is not a term with definition such as carnivore (meat eater), or omnivore (eats both animal and plant matter), or herbivore (eats only plant matter).  It would be a good term for omnivore though.

One more thing about the bacteria ... check out this youtube video ...  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wLTlqnMMg&feature=share   You can watch Dr. Karen Becker talk about bacteria and raw feeding and expose many of the myths you are used to.

sharismom

I asked for scientific proof to back up your "facts". As Doug stated, you have not cited a single source.

OK, tina, I have stated many many facts.  Name a few that you need to be backed up by proof.  They all seem very obvious to me but I will be glad to help you.

JackieG

I've not offered any "facts" in this thread and if you'd been paying attention you'd have noticed that fact.

You are absolutely correct.  You've got to remember that I am discussiong with 3 or 4 different people and a lot of posts have been made this afternoon.  I sometimes get confused exactly who said what.  I just answer each post as I come to it.  I try not to miss any of them and answer any responses to my facts. 

JackieG

What I disagree with is your attitude that anyone who feeds kibble is a puppet of the kibble manufacturers with no power to think or research on their own.

Anyone who buys most any product is a puppet to the manufacturer.  If that weren't the case, there would be no advertising.  I don't think the far greatest majority of people think they have a reason to question or research on their own.  They see the ads, buy the product, and feed it to their animals without much thought.  I try to get them to think.

JackieG

Feelings are not facts but they do influence how some people present facts to others and how those facts are absorbed by the audience.

I am a fact person and facts mean a lot to me.  Feelings are just that ... feelings.  I will never be swayed by feelings.

RawFedDogs

I take no extra precautions for bacteria in my house.  I don't disinfect the kitchen counter after I feed them.  I wipe it with a paper towel.  I don't clean the floor where they ate their meals.  They clean it themselves.  I have never gotten sick from feeding my dogs a raw diet.  Neither has anyone who has visited my house.  I get face kisses often and sometimes immediately after eating.  I have played in the floor with my dogs and so have my grandchildren age 6 months up to 19 years.  No one ever got sick.  THere are literally 1,000s of raw feeders with like results.

All these things you hear from vets and vet orginazations and government departments are exagurations.  I understand they probably believe what they say but in the real world those things just don't happen.  Most all of these organizations who claim the great dangers of feeding raw get a lot of money from the dog food companies.  What they don't tell you is that all the cautions they give you about feeding a raw diet applies to kibble fed dogs as well. 

Most all of us handle raw meats every day in cooking for our families and no one gets sick from the meat.  Why would feeding the same meat to dogs cause a health problem for the humans?

 

 

Most of my dogs' raw diet comes from venison.  This is not purchased venison but venison shot by people I know (and most do their own butchering/processing).  In some ways this is healthier since I don't have to worry about agriculture that is being fed antibiotics or plumped up with unhealthy feed or kept in disgusting living conditions.  My dogs are eating wild animals that ate a wild, natural diet and no one I know would shoot and bother processing a sick looking deer. 

But on the other hand I *do* take a few extra precautions handling this raw meat because it has not been subjected to the same processing and standards as human-grade raw meat.  Since my dogs get a lot of ground venison I do clean my own hands and the sink after I prepare it.  Ground meat having more surface area is at a higher risk for bacterial contamination and my dogs eat a lot of ground venison (they just ate a pound of it 20 minutes ago). 

Also I only feed them venison that has been frozen for a considerable amount of time.  Usually we get bags of free venison that is a year old (and has been frozen the entire time, never thawed and re-frozen) when our hunters have a fresh kill and don't have freezer space for the older stuff.  Freezing won't kill all the bacteria but it will help immobilize some of it.  If I buy meat from the butcher I don't freeze all of it because I start feeding some to the dogs fresh but this is human grade meat where the processing and sale is closely regulated and if it was contaminated, likely it would already be recalled. 

We eat a lot of venison ourselves (and I like mine *really* rare) and take the same precautions with our meat.  I've seen my dad process a deer in the driveway and yeah...I definitely feel better freezing it first or cooking before *I* eat it!  Store-bought stuff....no I'm not as careful handling and don't always freeze.

 

RawFedDogs

2.  None are human grade foods.  The moment the cow or chicken or turkey or lamb or whatever animal leaves the processing plant it is no longer human grade.

I'm feeding dogs, not mashing it up and feeding it to an infant.

3.  The trucks that transport this material from the processing plant is not refigerated.

And the truck my family uses to transport fresh killed deer is not refrigerated either.  You said yourself that you don't take special precautions with meat so why would they?

4.  The pretty food pictures on the bag have no relationship to the contents of the bag.

Well DUH

7.  You will not find a nutritionist anywere that isn't employed by a dog food company that will tell you that processed food is more nutritous than fresh whole food.

And you'd probably be aghast at the diet I eat and yet I am thin, healthy, in shape, and all of my bloodwork is in the optimal range. :D

8.  If you cut a kibble in half and examine it, you can't identify any of the ingredients because of the high amount of processing.

I would expect nothing different...

9.  Kibble is a marketing wonder.  Everyone believes without question whatever these companies tell you.  How smart is that?  Do you do that with automobile companies?  Insurance companies?  Medical companies?  Companies that produce any other product?  Why do kibble companies get a pass?  Have you ever seen a study by a kibble company proving anything about their product?

 

I've never contacted a kibble company about anything so I guess I don't know what propaganda you are referring to. I simply measure my DOG'S health and decide whether or not a certain type of food is working, same thing I do for myself.  I do not use any one person's arbitrary standards for health. If I like a product or service then I buy it.  If I don't like it, then I take my money elsewhere.  It's that simple.  I don't have time to worry about conspiracy theories and marketing propaganda.  Stuff either works or it doesn't.

 

I've never seen an ad for the kibble I feed. In addition, I am not a person that pays any attention to ads. I feed it because it has the ingredients & composition I want. It's expensive, I wish it were cheaper but I use it because my dog does very well on it.

If I had nothing better to do - thankfully I do- I would go 'find' facts to counter your facts. I will admit to laughing at your comment that you are above science. You come across as arrogant, dismissive and a zealot.

No one has attacked raw feeding yet you pound people as ignorant fools for feeding kibble. Since you don't consider feelings, I will not consider yours.

I am glad you are happy with how you feed your dogs and know that all the folks that have responded in this thread feed their animals well too.

I do have to comment that your comment about my friends WORKING bc's being obese was purely assinine. Since you rely on facts I wonder where you saw them? And how you assessed their weight? Sorry but your arrogance and ignorance really showed itself on that one. It would be darn hard to have an obese WORKING bc. But hey you clearly are omniscient

RawFedDogs

I am a fact person and facts mean a lot to me.  Feelings are just that ... feelings.  I will never be swayed by feelings.

Either you missed my point or you don't care that you alienate your audience.  That seems an odd way to convince people but I guess it works for you on your web site.  Around this forum, we're all pretty well read and informed about dogs and I've seen nothing you've posted that is new or that I haven't known for many years.  *shrugs*  I'm all about facts too and one fact is very evident in your posts and that's that you feel attacked and defensive for some reason when people are simply discussing findings that you disagree with.