Struggling with the take on retrieve

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html

This one talks about patience and rewards, as well as using an electric collar for distance work.

Some of the trainers will FF a dog that has a good natural retrieve with the purpose of gaining more control over the dog.

I started Piper when she was about 12 weeks, using a long hall way in the house. She won't retrieve balls or sticks and doesn't get excited over a feathered Dokken dummy, but she does a respectable job with pheasants.

 That one also includes the ear pinch, though I think the method there could be used without the ear pinch. Not to start any debates on this thread, but for the purposes of any recommendations to be made regarding this behavior, I won't inflict pain for the purposes of teaching a behavior that is for sport or fun. I'd love it if she does make it in fly ball, but if she's not having a fun time, I have a nice little height dog who is thrilled to retrieve in Luke, so I'm okay if she doesn't make it.

Does she like to tug?  If so, you could get one of those balls on a rope.  C/T when she takes the ball in her mouth.  She may get sticky with releasing the ball but lots of dog  training involves creating a problem to correct another problem.  Once she's reliably taking the ball you can work on the release with C/T.

You might also teach hold using a dummy and start like you would with a puppy in the hallway.  People sometimes think they can only use this with puppies but the point is to have the dog in an area that doesn't allow the dog to run away.  The othe advantage is a hallway has few distractions. 

For dogs that wander around with the object in their mouth due to being allowed to play this way, I keep the dog on a long line so I can gently reel them in to me each time (even in the hallway) and praise them for "here" whether they still have the object in their mouth or not.  You have to have the recall in the backchain when teaching a dog to retrieve.  But you need a dog who WANTS the object you are throwing or you're facing an uphill battle that's no fun for you or the dog. I always allow dogs to hold the object in their mouth for as long as possible, while I gently keep them by my side (usually me sitting on the floor). 

Transferring the hold to a ball should be easy once the dog is bringing back the dummy.  You may have to try a few different objects till you find one she really likes.  I've also done all kinds of nutty things to amp up a dog's prey drive or bring it to the surface in a way I can then shape into a retrieve. 

Will the dog chase and pick up? If the issue is not bringing the object all the way back, I'd work on that different than, say, not wanting to retrieve at all.  Pan had an issue at flyball where he was dropping the ball at the first jump.  They told me I was being *too* rewarding, so from now on I have my back turned to him and have a spotter tell me whether he carried the ball far enough.  As soon as he commits to the turn, I give my call and then run away with my back to him. This gets him coming to me fast but because I'm not facing him and he can't see his reward in my hands he doesn't drop the ball when we do it this way.

This is how I trained Nikon's formal retrieve and it transferred over to flyball with the tennis ball with no introduction.  He is trained to retrieve whatever object I indicate, and because of how he is trained he sees the object itself as neutral but the entire behavior chain as very rewarding.  With him I've never had issues with him dropping the ball (or dumbbell for that matter).  He always does a complete retrieve and comes back fast because the ball is not self-rewarding.  Even if he fumbles the ball he will make sure he gets it before he comes back down the lane.

http://www.dutchbingo.net/personal/How%20to%20Backchain%20the%20Formal%20Retrieve.pdf

 She doesn't show a consistent interest in retrieving or tugging. Sometimes she will chase it out, sometimes she even picks it up and brings it almost all the way back. Many times she shows absolutely no interest. What my mom basically inadvertently taught her was that, no matter what she does, the human will go get the item and throw it again.

Lies, Luke dropped early a few times because he attempted to chew the ball. He also dropped early once a few weeks ago, the first time I brought out the cuz ball. I let him see it too early, and he dropped his ball before he was over the jumps. He didn't get the cuz, and he hasn't dropped since.

 I had to use the backward chaining to get one of our dogs to fetch something. It took awhile to get him to finally put his mouth on an obstacle but it finally happened and he will now fetch. I did use a clicker to get him to finally take something in his mouth. In the beginning, I think I rewarded for him just showing an interest by moving towards the obstacle in my hand. You are already a step ahead of that, as she is touching the ball. If when I would try to wait for him to do a bit more, such as maybe put his mouth on the ball, and he would start to lose interest, then I know I moved on too fast. It took repeating the exercise over and over again but finally paid off. I also used this method to get him to play tug with me as well. Remember also to just have short lessons. You always want to end with the dog still into the game big time. Don't practice for so long that she starts to get upset or bored with the whole thing.

 Lies, I was thinking, not that it matters too much, and Maureen, what you used is forward chaining, and not backwards chaining. It's still good though (really, there is no evidence that says one is better than the other). I've  always done it backwards, or with Luke I just got lucky, and as far as I know, he's been retrieving since he could walk. I think I'll switch and go the other way around with her, and see how that works. 

Edited to add: I might just try handing her to someone else to train this. I worked just now with her. We definitely need to putting some teeth on the ball. She's bumping it with her nose, and she's licking it. No teeth on it yet. I think if I allow the touching and licking too much longer, we're going to be stuck on that step. I might hand her to a friend who has no expectations about how long this should take for this one.

She does have a really nice drop apparently. I was using Babybel cheese with her, and she took the wrapper. She dropped it very nicely when I asked her too, so I let her take it a few more times. She dropped it every time.

griffinej5

 Maureen, what you used is forward chaining, and not backwards chaining. 

My mistake

She does have a really nice drop apparently. I was using Babybel cheese with her, and she took the wrapper. She dropped it very nicely when I asked her too, so I let her take it a few more times. She dropped it every time.

There you go, something to work with. Though she may just think wrappers are something to pick up and be checking out the garbage for them.

 No big deal either way,  I'm probably the only person who really cares.

She can't get into the kitchen where the garbage is, so we don't have to worry about that. 

WHOOAAA!!!! I got teeth on the ball (the kong squeaker ball, and once on the training tennis ball). I'll take that, and transfer her to an acceptable ball, or kill the squeaker to make it acceptable. There might be hope for this dog yet!

Oh, and she does sometimes go out after something, not all the time, but when she is motivated. She can run around like a nut in the dog park for a long time (another thing she shouldn't be doing). However, she doesn't seem to last long in activities that are directed by a person, particularly with my mom around. Anyway, the retrieve is hard to test in the house with Luke around, since he's so ready to go after anything.

Maybe this will help all the peeps here who want to train a retrieve without resorting to force.  This is the system I use, very successfully:-))

http://www.schutzhund-training.net/obedience/clickret.html

 Anne, so that's basically a backwards chained retrieve? I started with a backwards chain, but that wasn't working out, because she would not take the ball. I sometimes have a slight personal preference towards a backwards chain, but it's not relevant to the discussion or to this behavior.

 I got another quick session in there for her today, since my mom went out, and I just find she works better when she's not around. She put teeth on the training tennis ball, but I am fairly certain she isn't super sure of the behavior I'm expecting. She's  not offering the behavior with the frequency, short interval between trials that I would expect if she was certain. 

 Updating again.

She's taking the ball in her mouth, holding it for a second or so, and dropping it now. I have a hole cut in the tennis ball (was possibly going to use this for Luke in the run back, or was going to see if she would go after that). I put the ball on my  finger, and she had to pull it off, not with much force, but she had to put some effort in to get it.