Sits and downs in heel position

You could train him to target a stick, then use that skill to "place" him where you want the sit or the down.  Then you fade the target stick, and just continue to reinforce him for the most correct responses. 

You might want to consider that he seems not to have learned heel as a "position" - so, he's doing sits and downs the most comfy way for him - here's an interesting video of Emily Larlham's method of teaching that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM

To me, moving the rear back for the down is actually correct (to me the dog is correct when the front/shoulder remains in line and the rear moves), but I know a lot of people struggle with the "rock back sit".  Two things I know of to try.... if you do perch work, train all the positions with the dog on the perch.  With sit especially, on the perch the dog cannot rock back because that would mean the front leaves the perch.  Instead the dog has to tuck under while the front stays on the perch.  Also train going from the positions randomly, so not always sit to down, but stand to down to stand to sit, etc.  On the perch the dog would down with his paws or elbows on and then if you ask for a sit from a down the dog would have to pop back up and tuck the rear rather than do a push up scooting further backward.  Another way we do this which is similar to the perch is using some sort of box that is about the same size as the dog and has three sized.  The dog learns a place command to get in the box, then do positions in the box.

Liesje

To me, moving the rear back for the down is actually correct (to me the dog is correct when the front/shoulder remains in line and the rear moves), but I know a lot of people struggle with the "rock back sit". 

Maybe my issue is more that when he sits from a down he pulls his front legs back and ends up far behind me.  I don't mind the way he downs so much as when he comes back into a sit he is behind me and not next to me.  Luckily he isn't doing a rock back sit as well.  He actually sits quite straight up and down.

 Oh, and what exactly is a perch?  I have an idea in my head from what you described, but I'm not sure if it's right.

OK, yeah I think we are on the same page.  Nikon will do the same thing (if I down him in heel, then ask for a sit, he pushes up so he's out of position).  It is important to me not to have this because in Rally I assume there are times where the dog must sit from the down and also in SDA obedience and SchH obedience when the long down/honor down is done you return to your dog and have the dog assume "basic" position (sitting in heel).  Same for picking up the dog after the send out.  I know in Rally you can use whatever commands or signals you want so that's not an issue.  I asked my Schutzhund trainer what command is required when picking up your dog in those other situations, specifically do I have to say "sit"? and he said probably not.  So what I tell Nikon is not a "sit" command but a "heel" ("fuss";) command.  He knows heel as the position of being next to me and if we're not moving that means sitting position.  I've found that when I return to him on a down and say "fuss!" he pops up into sitting heel position.  Would that help?

Perch training is when you work with the dog's front feet on something raised like a large brick, phone book, dog bowl, etc and train the dog to pivot right and left and change positions only moving their rear end.

I can try to make videos of what I mean later today...

Thanks Lies.  That does make sense.  I think it would work, I'll have to try it.  I wonder though if they would count that as going from a down to something else because I'm thinking he will actually stand to come into heel.  I believe he will do it, I'm just not sure how he would look doing it.  I'll have to try that out. 

I think I know what you mean with the perch training.  I have used a stool before for hind end awareness, but I haven't worked that in a while.  I never thought to use it for anything other than pivoting left and right though.  I'd love to see a video of this.  Thanks!

Everything came so naturally to Finn, so this is really making me think (which isn't a bad thing at all!)

I dont mean to butt into your thread Georgie, but I was wondering something about this perch training.

My trainer last night wanted the dogs to "place" which I am assuming is the same thing as "perch". He wants the dogs to place their front feet on the bowl and then eventually place their back feet on another bowl. He however, didnt want me to try to coax Marley into getting on to the bowl. I thought I was more instructing Marley to, but he said "let him figure it out on his own". Needless to say, I have always shown Mar what to do and so when I didnt do anything and sat back to let him "figure it out", Marley grew bored of standing there and just laid down.

He wants this to be our homework, so I will be working with Marley this week, but I dont know if there is a better way to train him other than showing him what he needs to do and reward him while he is standing on the bowl.

Getting the dog on the perch is a difference between luring and freeshaping.  IMO both work and as far as the end result of simply getting the dog read to learn pivots and positions on a perch, I personally do not see one better than the other.  It's more a matter of principle.  Nikon I freeshaped perch training because part of why I was using a perch was to experiment with freeshaping methods.  Pan I was more interested in the actual perch training so I lured him on a few times with a treat and within minutes he knew the "perch" command meant put his front feet on the bowl.  Freeshaping is what your trainer is talking about.  The thing is though, freeshaping requires you to think critically and break everything down into tiny steps.  So, if the dog can't figure out the full behavior of putting his feet on the perch and he gets bored, in order to be successful you need to break it down further.  Does he look at the bowl?  If so, mark and reward that.  Does he sniff it or touch it with part of his body?  If so, mark and reward that.  If you decide to freeshape you may have to start with rewarding the dog's interest in the perch before he even touches it or gets on it.  Freeshaping helps the dog be a more proactive learner (doesn't just wait for direction) and helps the handler learn how to break down more complex behaviors.

Wow Lies, you are so dead on! That is what the trainer is doing. Same thing came with the bringing a toy back to me. He said break it down into small steps and first have the dog touch the toy with his nose and reward with the other hand. Continue doing this until he *knows* after he touches it, he will get a treat/reward. Then move it to the floor and have the dog touch it and then come back to you for the reward. Next step, bring the toy back to you and get the reward. etc etc. He did want me to reward Mar when he would just touch the bowl with a paw or show any interest in it (preferred I use a clicker, but I have never done this with Marley, so I would use praise).  Having you explain it, I GET IT! The trainer was confusing me! I had no idea why I was needing to break it down into tiny steps.

However, I have never trained Marley this way. He just isnt getting it. He is so used to me showing him what I want and expect him to do. I have always been the end all be all I guess. Is that a bad thing? That I didnt let my dog do his own thinking and he looks to me for direction?

ETA: I am not trying to speak negatively about this training method, I am sure it works for a lot of people and maybe it IS the better route to go  if you want your dog to think more independantly, but to me, it seems so time consuming when I would think it would be a lot easier to show the dog what you want.  

In my opinion and experience, not making a point of doing freeshaping can attribute to a dog not being as proactive or as willing to "throw behaviors" on his own.  But there are also aspects of temperament and the genetic makeup of the dog's drives that come into play so it's not always a matter of it being the handler's fault for not doing it.  Some dogs will always learn better with luring and rewarding and then fading the lure.

I did perch freeshaping with Nikon because I intended (and did) to train him a fully freeshaped, backchained formal retrieve using nothing but a marker, a reward, and the dowel.  Before we started that very complex behavior I freeshaped a few other things such as perch work to get his mind ready for that type of work.

Pan is not going to do a freeshaped retrieve so I lured him on the perch with food.

Again I think it depends on your purpose for doing perch work.  If the purpose was to work on freeshaping using the perch, then freeshape it.  However if you plan to use perch work to train the dog to change positions correctly or to pivot right and left, then I would definitely go ahead and lure the dog onto the bowl and reward him there and not waste a lot of time getting the dog on the perch for starters.

Stephanie, I saw your mention in mindless chat about the trainer and I knew what he was trying to do but didn't want to butt in. lol  Glad you found this thread and got Liesje description of freeshaping versus luring.  Sorry to continue the hijack, Georgie. :) 

JackieG

Stephanie, I saw your mention in mindless chat about the trainer and I knew what he was trying to do but didn't want to butt in. lol  Glad you found this thread and got Liesje description of freeshaping versus luring.  Sorry to continue the hijack, Georgie. :) 

It's OK.  Hijacking is good when people are learning!!