Agility....what to do if dog is not food oriented?

Can she target her toy instead?  I love using toys.  My current agility dog works only for a toy.  He doesn't care about treats either (well he does, but not when he's excited and working in a higher state of drive).  I've used a toy to train him to go out to various obstacles, go out and around things and stuff like that.  I actually don't like the dog to target anything, as I find that having their toy or treat as a target sometimes makes them jump flat (too high drive to get to that reward) or they just get so excited they aren't really thinking.  I tend to direct my dog to an obstacle and once he's committed to it/going over it, I toss the ball out ahead of him.

She does and I use it but the instructor says "no" with the ramp.  I am  fustrated and don't really click with the instructor...she doesn't know the rule book and doesn't answer questions about it.  She wants the dog to learn 2 feet on the ramp, 2 feet off the ramp and stop (is this the rule) and to target a lid.  She is very inflexible and will not ok us to go further.

 I am trying to find another agility trainer in my area but so far no luck.  I also can't really tell if Cannella is enjoying herself or not.  I think if it was just us and the equipment we could have fun!  ha, ha, but that isn't going to happen!  I don't want to force her to do something she may not enjoy, but with the equipment she seems to like it.  She may be picking up my stress too, the last class was not fun for me at the end at all...

I think once you find a class/trainer that works WITH you, Cannella will enjoy it tonz more if she knows you're having fun as well. Can you buy field passes and practice on your own?

MysteryTheMorab

She does and I use it but the instructor says "no" with the ramp.

oranges81

MysteryTheMorab

She does and I use it but the instructor says "no" with the ramp.

Does she explain why she won't use it for the ramp??

As an agility instructor, i can guess that she is thinking a ball on a target will entice the dog to grab the ball and go and *not* stop at the end like she wants.  IMO the instructor is being very inflexible and should loosen up a bit. In CA there are tons of agility facilities but they may not be close to you.   At the top of this site, http://googility.com/  is a facility locater, so give that a try.

tashakota

oranges81

MysteryTheMorab

She does and I use it but the instructor says "no" with the ramp.

Does she explain why she won't use it for the ramp??

As an agility instructor, i can guess that she is thinking a ball on a target will entice the dog to grab the ball and go and *not* stop at the end like she wants.  IMO the instructor is being very inflexible and should loosen up a bit. In CA there are tons of agility facilities but they may not be close to you.   At the top of this site, http://googility.com/  is a facility locater, so give that a try.

  There isn't really a reason that a dog has to target food to do agility. Certainly not a reason to give up on agility training! She looks like she really enjoys it in the pictures :)

 You could teach her to target the object at home using food, get her really solid on it then use her ball to reward the target at home. It really isn't a hard behavior to teach, the only thing that will need work is getting to to perform it in a variety of situations. This explains how to begin teaching it (scroll down to target): http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/styled/ And progressing:

http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/styled-2/

 http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/styled-8/

 You could also teach her a 2o2o (two on/two off) position with or without the use of a target at home. This is fairly easy to start at home with steps, boards, rocks, a training perch, really anything and everything your dog can learn to stop with their back feet on:

This shows the beginning of 2o2o training with a perch - you can and should practice with any variety of objects though to help your dog generalize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YTXUhr2GzE&feature=related

Or maybe you could try to teach her running contacts? It's much more involved but another possibility: http://silvia.trkman.net/cone.htm

Yes you can teach 2o2o without food.  Nikon learned it really fast with a toy.  I thought for sure it would be impossible, since he LOVES the a-frame and he does Schutzhund where they have a steeper A-frame and they just jump off the top (no contact), but he caught on so fast.

My first instructor preferred food and targets too.  I think that's just how she always trained so that's really all she knew to teach.  We got a second instructor and I switched to her because she's more about using toys, getting the dogs in drive and going for power and speed (but you still have to do all the flatwork so you are accurate!).

Your instructor is limited IMO - I think whoever posted that it's probably the only way she knows how to teach that behavior is probably right - but as you have seen here, there are many ways.  Food is a powerful motivator for most dogs, but it isn't the only one.  A "reinforcement" is something the dog wants, not something we want them to want;-)  However, the only thing I'd be wary of is that your dog may well be a bit anxious in the new environment, as not taking food that is normally enticing is one sign that the dog is a little too nervous.  One way to test that is to up the ante.  If you were using a biscuit, for example, switch to roast beef and see if the dog takes that.  In other words, give the dog something it loves, and would not be likely to refuse.  If the dog does refuse, walk away to a distance where there are no other dogs, equipment, or people.  Feed the dog - if the dog eats, chances are that it's nervousness.  Or, if the dog attends to a ball, and not food if the ball is present, that may simply mean that the ball is higher up the hierarchical list of rewards for that particular dog.

While I can understand the flexibility in being able to use both toys and food rewards, depending on the exercise, I agree with the rest in saying that you can teach targeting either at home (where it's less arousing) with food and toy, or just teach it at class with a toy. If it was me, I would respectfully tell my instructor what my plans were ("Thanks for the advice, although I think I will try teaching my dog to target using a toy as a reward";).  I do feel the best of both worlds would be a dog that can work for either, because it *is* often simpler and clearer - for most dogs - to use food for certain stationary behaviours, and to use the toys for the arousing/drivey behaviours. It's simple understanding of reinforcement placement and how many repetitions you can in a period of time using food vs. using toy play as a reward. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the toy as a reward if your dog will not accept food!!!

At the very least your instructor should be willing to let you teach it that way (it's not like we're talking reward vs. correction or something that borders on conflict of interest issues!!), and at the best should be able to guide you in how to do it! If not, then I too would be looking for a trainer who is skilled in more than just *their way* of teaching.

spiritdogs

  However, the only thing I'd be wary of is that your dog may well be a bit anxious in the new environment, as not taking food that is normally enticing is one sign that the dog is a little too nervous. 

I think that depends on whether she had the ball with her, or had given the dog the ball and then tried to use food.  Nikon will always accept food, but if the ball is in the picture, he's not motivated for food.  Our agility instructors are always loading his targets with food, out of habit (they step in and load it for every dog) and then laugh when Nikon does the target, but ignores the food and looks around confused like, "Why was the ball not placed here or thrown?"  I could probably use high value food with him, but the agility environment in general stimulates more arousal and probably prey drive (seeing all the little dogs flying around), so the toy works better with him in that mindset.

Thank you for all of your replies and links which I will follow up on.

A couple notes: I had the highest yummy food I could (given her allergies...no more chicken for her!)...I went out and bought steak for her which she loves.  Totally ignores if the ball is in the picture.

 I do believe this instructor was too inflexible and am glad a few of you think so too, that it isn't just me.  There is another instructor if I can't find private training elsewhere; it is just the time schedule would be hard.  I'd have to leave work a few hours early (poor me!) but may do it.

I am going to continue trying to teach her at home and work on other things we need working on, like her recall.  There is no rush, right?  She just turned two.

Thank you again all!