Another TOP young trainer!

This weekend we had a couple of people going for their first BH. Our TD just happnened to be the judge. At one point the question of handler help came up and the guys were asking whether they will lose points if they talk/praise their dogs in heeling. Our TD's response? "Only if I can hear it" LOL.

LOL, I definitely got in a few "come on, good boy!"s.  That has actually been the hardest thing for us, fading all of the verbal encouragement and light verbal corrections.  Since we're trialing this weekend, every day this week we're going to a new place to train and basically get out of the car, do the pattern (or something similar length), no praise and no toys until the end.  We've been training everyday anyway so I'm not worried about doing too much but he's finally to the point where he can do the pattern even multiple times without the "chatter".

Fabulous training (and trainer.....) indeed. Nice routine, a lot of work has gone into that for sure!

But, I can't get past the bunny hop. I don't know much about Schutzhund for sure, and I know how stylized the sport can be, but to me it just doesn't fit what I define as *heeling*. LOL.

Also, I can't tell by the video...it seems like cool weather, as everyone is dressed warmly, but the dog seems to be panting quite heavily and lip-licking a lot, indicating some stress signals that I don't see a lot of normally. Now, I have no idea how this dog was trained, so I have no prior judgements on training methods, but when I look at that dog I see some stress behaviours.

I don't see stress so much as being anxious and maybe a little overloaded in drive (yet trained to a high level of precision).  Panting...who knows, maybe the dog tracked the same day?  Doesn't really matter what the weather is but Nikon definitely does not heel with his mouth shut or fully relaxed, especially if we've done some warm up to work up the drive and cap it.  Normally a dog trained with a lot of compulsion will show it during the pace changes and out of motion exercises when the command is given, they will basically duck.  Most dogs show anxious behaviors when doing the sit/down/stand, there can be a lot of commotion, judge and secretary on the field and the judge sometimes will crowd the dog on purpose during these exercises, and of course they don't being "left" by the handler.  I guess I find it hard to make assumptions about the training or the stress when most if not all of the dogs I know show the same behaviors regardless of how they were trained.  Some judges don't want to see a dog that is too complacent when "left" by the handler (especially on a long down).

Thanks for your response. I'm not making assumptions, I think I said that. I'm interested in looking at the whole performance and the dog's reaction to different things, from the experience of somebody in another, different obedience sport. I like understanding the sport better. I'm not judging the training methods behind it, because I don't know what was used, therefore it's easier to discuss as there is no preconceived idea of what went on.

I guess I'm just trying to compare the schutzhund obedience with traditional obedience to see why the dog may show enhanced anxiety for a drop out of motion or stand out of motion in schutzhund obedience, whereas you don't see the same heavy panting/breating reaction out of traditional obedience dogs. I wouldn't expect or want a totally closed mouth either, that's much more tension than panting.  There are a lot of components of schutzhund that are surely more intense, but I don't see the obedience routine as being all that intense. In schutzhund, are different events (protection, tracking, and obedience) directly back to back? That would definitely explain it better. I would understand that most dogs don't thoroughly enjoy being left alone, on the out of motion exercises, but I train a lot of distance work, and stationary distance work, between agility and obedience exercises, and I don't see that type of reaction in my own dogs. And with dogs that are trained in a sport where they are supposed to be pretty stable, if it was anxiety is that included in the judging of it? That's why I'm interested in it, to understand the differences.

The overloaded in drive idea interests me, because the behaviours the dog is showing reminds me more of dogs that are showing anxiety about agility and being in a fast-paced, high-adrenaline environment, and you see a lot more high-drive dogs in agility. I would expect to see those behaviours in the protection side, or the tracking for sure, but again the actual obedience portion is not actually that intense or from watching different videos of it. But again, if they were all back-to-back and the dog went from one to another within a short time, it would make a lot more sense to me.

Just trying to figure it out a little more. I'm an analytical person, so while I love to watch to see the strong training, it's natural for me to have a deeper look to see just what it's all about, to the dog and to the sport.

The obedience routine can be quite intense!  Totally depends on the dog and training though.  Right now I'm working on cleaning up Nikon's and actually taking it down quite a bit in intensity so that we can more easily transition to other styles of obedience.  He will never have flashy points obedience like in this video, my goal is to title him in SchH with respectable scores but I don't want to train for SchH points at the expense of my other goals.  Nikon actually shows much more drive and anticipation in SchH obedience than his agility, and that's not to say he's flat in agility!  I guess, it's easier to understand without the comparisons.  It's really apples and oranges to traditional obedience.  It *can* be similar, again depending on the dog and trainer, but SchH obedience is looking to expose a lot more than just "can the dog to this this this and this cleanly?"  Also, as I always say I'm a SchH purist who believes that training in SchH is training ALL three phases.  Therefore you can't really examine one phase alone, it's only a partial understanding of the dog and the work.  Each phase is very much influenced by the others, and not just because you have to perform them all on the same day (which isn't always true in large trials).  If the protection phase is the only phase where the dog is showing drive and power then the dog and/or the training program are lacking.  Watching one video of one obedience performance is an incomplete picture.  Schutzhund is first and foremost a breed test; the training is really what exposes the strengths and weaknesses in the dogs.  I am not familiar with Henk, his pedigree, or how he was trained so I really can't say anything about him one way or the other other than what I like/dislike about the ob routine.  Performing for titles is the fun, sport side, but "Schutzhund" is a process.

This is Mark Natinsky's routine. By far my favorite from what have been posted.

I thought about what Lies said some more last night and I think her point about how you can't look at SchH obedience in isolation is a very very good one.

A top level competitor once told me at the end of the day Schutzhund is all about obedience - not only obedience during heeling and the retrieves, but obedience in tracking and obedience in protection. For him, schutzhund is basically one gigantic obedience/control routine. Now I am not saying I agree with this and I'm pretty sure Lies does not (I probably agree with it more than Lies LOL). But the point he was making is when you train an obedience exercise (something simple like "down";), you train it in all three phases because you use it in all three phases (for down: article indication in tracking; down in motion, send out in obedience; preventing the escape of the decoy out of the blind in protection).

I do agree about the level of obedience in all three phases.  Tracking and protection are like taking the natural instincts and drives of the dog yet channeling into behaviors where we have control and compliance.

I think more what I mean to say to Kim is that a dog showing stress in a short video of one phase may not have anything to do with how that obedience was trained.  If I'm having issues in tracking, that may very well show itself in obedience.  If I'm having issues in obedience, it will effect my dog's performance in protection.  It may be an interesting discussion, but I don't think it's really appropriate to look at *just* the obedience phase and ask questions or take stabs at how the dog was trained in that phase.  About a month ago I spent a lot of time working with my dog in tracking.  During that time I did very little obedience and what I did was fairly easy, lighthearted stuff.  When you train so hard for all three phases there's only so much you can throw at the dog at a time and expect the dog to problem solve and gain confidence throughout.  Every August we take a break for two weeks and do basically nothing related to Schutzhund.

For me, to really be able to discuss a dog's performance and training I need to see the dog being trained in all three phases.

Liesje

It may be an interesting discussion, but I don't think it's really appropriate to look at *just* the obedience phase and ask questions or take stabs at how the dog was trained in that phase. 

I don't think anyone (especially myself) has taken any stabs at how the dog was trained in any phase. I openly stated that I was happy that I did not know the training methods behind it, so that I didn't have any preconceived ideas and could address it as a blank slate. It was actually you I believe who mentioned that the behaviours may very well have used compulsion. I was simply addressing the dog's behaviour in the situation, as it relates to the sport, from the videos provided.

I didn't see the same behaviours in the protection video that I did in the obedience routine, and I was interested in knowing what might cause those differences. To me the dog looked very secure and confident in the protection side, and was not showing many anxious/stress behaviours at all, so I was surprised to see what looks like some more anxious behaviours during the obedience routine (for instance, the stay-out-of-motion where the dog was really looking around, lip-licking, and seemed generally unsure) - in other words slightly less secure possibly.

It's no different how I would compare my dog's behaviour in Rally Obedience and Agility to see what differences were present in terms of stability vs. insecurity, comfort vs. anxiety, and stress vs. calm, and to try to come to terms with why those differences might be present, and if I needed to make any changes accordingly. I didn't see the tracking video so I have no comparison for that.

The training methods are actually unimportant to the discussion I'm trying to create, as I know training methods alone don't dictate how a dog reacts to the ring (many clicker-trained dogs show stress during trials, and many compulsion-based dogs do not). The training methods would certainly be important if one aspect was trained with pure reward proofing and one was trained with pure compulsion proofing and you could see the differences as a result (like the ducking you mentioned previously), but we don't know how each behaviour pattern was taught, so we can't address that because we don't know precisely if there is any difference in that manner.

  I think much of the difference between this style of OB and AKC style OB is most SchH people want the dog working "in drive" for obedience. That is what gives you this sort of intensity in the obedience routine. I do think working in that state can be some what stressful/frustrating for the dogs. The dog is being asked to maintain both an active state "drive" and at the same time, control himself to remain in a precise position and follow cues. It's a fine line. You examples of this sort stress/frustration all the time with high drive dogs in agility. Almost all flyball dogs are stressed/frustrated waiting their turn.

 It isn't that obedience, agility or flyball are "intense" by nature, it's the dogs and the way the dogs are trained that makes the activities intense. Dogs can do the behaviors required from agility, obedience or flyball  without any enthusiasm or intensity at all...and some do.

  As for the hopping heel, it is a bit distracting. I too was waiting for it to stop and realized it wasn't going to LOL But I do like the intensity of the dog's performance. One of my Belgians sometimes does something like this when he's real wound up but it never lasts more than a few steps.