About Clicker Method

    • Gold Top Dog

    About Clicker Method

    I've been practicing around with my dog for 2 months with clicker method. Now my dog is 4 months old (i started practising from the very begging I got him). Thing is that is not working very well. First it was impressive how he could learn an order like "SIT" with just 2 months old In the few next days he was able to SIT and PLATZ (lie down) pretty well... also he learnt the order SOFA to go to his SOFA straightly. I was totally happy with his learning, but after the 3rd month it went straight down, he could not even manage to SIT at first order... even at 3rd order said Now he is 4 months old, and he keeps struggling with the orders. I tried to keep a straight week 15 minutes lessons every day, with SIT order. The last day he managed to sit pretty quickly and fine Second week, just PLATZ, he could manage to platz fast Third week, I said him "SIT" and he lied down, anything I said, he lied down. Until after 40 repetitions, he managed to sit down, I staied that day with SIT order. Next day, he could manage to LIE DOWN!!! Same thing, 50 repetitions, after he could manage to lie down. Nearly the same I experienced the first weeks when he was 3 months old. I have some questions: 1. Is he toooo young to start learning? I'm following the basic puppy guide from Ian Dunbar, just to basic things like peeing and pooing in the right place (he makes some errors sometimes after 2 months.... and I can't understand why, he should be enought standalone to go to his place right 100% of the times, since we have repeated the Ian Dunbar process hundreds of times) 2. Why he learns one order and forgets the second? Looks pretty difficult to teach 2 orders in a row, and nearly impossible to think on 3!!! I've read Karen Pryor bibliography and I seem to do the clicker training pretty well. This is a little bit frustrating, I've been mantaining a constant two months patience but it starts to go down :(
    • Gold Top Dog
    He's not too young to learn. And he has learned. What you need to remember though is that he is only 4 months old. 50 reps for a 4 month old pup is a lot. 15 min training sessions are too long imo. Keep them between 5 and 10 mins on the long end for now.
    • Gold Top Dog

     50 reps at 4 months? His brain is still a baby brain. Give him a break. Also, what do you mean when you say things like order or command?

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would keep the training short and fun. Be light hearted; your dog is a puppy, enjoy him while he's young! Don't be so rigid and strict in your training, but keep it consistant and fair.

    tiffy

    Also, what do you mean when you say things like order or command?

    I think they mean "sit" or "down", something like that..? Some people call that a cue (it sounds better).

    • Gold Top Dog

    Also, expecting a 4 month old puppy to be completely housetrained is WAY too much, WAY too soon. This dog is physically and mentally VERY young, still, and you can only expect so much of him.

    • Gold Top Dog

     It IS tough to teach 2 or 3 behaviors in a row to a young pup.  After all, it would be very hard to teach a three year old child algebra right after addition, and you would likely get the same kind of confusion.  The fact that he kept trying to lie down isn't stupidity or disobedience, it's him trying to figure out what you want.  He's trying hard to learn!  Lighten up - I think that you are expecting way too much too soon.  Try keeping your training sessions short - no more than a few repetitions at a time.  Reward PROGRESS not perfection, and the perfection will eventually come.  Be happy with your dog, not expect him to understand everything like a little robot right away.  He is likely to forget some of his training when he goes through adolescence - so don't get mad, just persevere with gentle training and he will get through it. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    This isn't about a method, this is about unrealistic expectations of what a young dog should be doing!

    The others have it right - lighten up on teaching, put your focus towards enjoying your pup for being a pup, as puppyhood lasts only a short time, and it'll be over before you know it! Don't rush things too much, if you relax and realize your pup is being a totally normal pup, then you'll probably find your relationship grows and your pup will learn new things easily. Your pup is probably confused at the drilling, and frustrated that you aren't looking at the world the way he understands it, and it's setting you both up for failure.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Couriously enough if I say sit or platz he always lie down, while if my gf says sit he sits... so he attends to the order of sit of my gf and to the order of lying down of mine. In a session he can manage to learn a simple order, but he forgives straight away. I believe cliker looks impressive at first, but is a matter of billions of reps just like any other technique At least not at last, I believe he is going 4 out of 5 times to the correct place to poo/pee and 100% of the time eating from the kongs as Ian Dunbar recommends. But my expectations are made from the Ian Dunbar's book, he says that at the time of 5 months dogs should be doing everything brilliant in the house or it will be a complete disaster in the meanwhile, older...
    • Gold Top Dog

    Perhaps Dr. Dunbar can do it, but I have certainly never had a completely housebroken, basic obedience trained, 4 month old puppy. I've never had a completely housebroken, reliably obedience trained, 12 month old puppy. Never. They need time, mentally and physically, to mature, before they are totally reliable.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    MiSSigNNo
    Couriously enough if I say sit or platz he always lie down, while if my gf says sit he sits... so he attends to the order of sit of my gf and to the order of lying down of mine.

    My suspicion would be that your girlfriend does not train behaviors back to back and simply does "sit" without training "platz" in the same session.  More likely than not, you are (or earlier on you were) doing both and your puppy figured out you were going to command platz next, so he ought to do it first, since you were going to command it anyway.  Or you trained platz as a combo after a sits, so the reward marker was delivered incorrectly.  If you've got that kind of inconsistency in training, you will have similar inconsistency in delivery/performance of commands.  Not the puppy's fault.
    • Gold Top Dog

    jennie_c_d
    Perhaps Dr. Dunbar can do it, but I have certainly never had a completely housebroken, basic obedience trained, 4 month old puppy. I've never had a completely housebroken, reliably obedience trained, 12 month old puppy. Never. They need time, mentally and physically, to mature, before they are totally reliable.

     

    Luci, The UD dog on my list, was well and truely house trained by 4 months. Had finished all the obedience classes that i could do by seven months, trialling by 12 months, Tch by 18 months and if i could do it all again i would do it much slower and with even more of a sense of fun.I would never do sessions as long as yours (even with her)  and would take cue discrimination so so slowly (sit, platz etc). Any sign of stress you need to stop. My training sessions with her as an adult dog would not be any where as tough as yours! I go for may be three to four reps of something, play, reward. I use clickers heavily.  And this is a dog that breaks the car door down for the oppurtunity to train. You need to lighten up!!! I am known for being a micro splitter (breaking things down to VERY  small bits).

    She is an exceptional dog.

    Now my boy Sam... He came to us as a 16 month old. We  struggled over 6-8 months with  toilet training.. He is lightening quick on learning, but is hassled by other dogs around him. He does a lot of stuff, but i take it slow. Love him to bits. He is relaible but it took quite a while,and  to be honest i don't  bother counting. He did some pretty anti social things. I  just enjoy him for the dog he is. The frightening thing is that it is likely that he will be a better performer than Luci.

     I think that as i go on the most important thing in dog training is to lighten up, to learn to play and laugh with your dog. If it is some kind of race or test for both of you why bother?

    For performance dogs, i really don't care too much what they learn formally for ages. I just focus on two things, learning to work out what makes them go, and that they believe that i am reliable and trustworthy and a good source of reward.

    • Gold Top Dog

    It sounds like what you are doing is something called mass trialing, where you have him practice the same thing over and over, and the results you are seeing are the types of results that would often be seen from mass trialing. It sounds to me like you are doing a whole bunch of trials of the same thing. Your dog then figures out, I get the click for this thing. He may not be paying attention to what you are saying at all. When you start the next session and he does whatever you practiced last, this would be why. He isn't paying attention to what you are saying, and is just doing whatever worked last. What I would suggest to help this is that you do something called interspersion. Do some quick sessions where he practices everything he already knows. Practice everything he can do in a random order. It might help to write these on cards and shuffle them each time to be sure you are being random.

    You can teach a few behaviors in a row, but it may be helpful to take a short break in between. You may also want to develop a signal with him to indicate that you are no longer practicing the previous behavior. With a short break, he may learn that this is a signal that what he had just been trying isn't going to work this time.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree with everyone here. Just make sure you aren't click/ treat for something you didn't ask for. When Lilith does this I ignore what she is doing, because I didn't ask for it and I wait for her to do the right one. I also mix it up, I never do things in the same order I previously did.  Sometimes when Lilith gets really excited she'll do several at once so I just have to be patient or take a break and play and try again lol.

    I also think the rate a puppy/ dog learns depends largely on the individual, not so much as the age of the dog. I have been clicker training Lilith since the day I brought her home, she is just over ten weeks old now and she can now do at least ten different commands without luring and some of them are pretty reliable already. So it is possible, but like I said, it depends on the individual dog.

    Try to have fun with your dog when you train and try not to be disappointed if your puppy doesn't learn things really fast, everything comes with time, patience and consistency.  I never expected Lilith to learn so much so fast or be able to even focus for any length of time at least not until she was older lol. I just want her to have fun with training (which she is) and after seeing how much Lilith loved doing silly tricks and learning, we started to see what else she could do. But Lilith thrives on learning and some dogs may not. So you have to be careful you aren't pushing them too hard or expecting more than they can give, if you do, it won't be fun for anyone.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for the response. I definitely see that sometimes I find my self on a mass trialing effect

    Briefly the training lessons where something like:

    1. First I start with three day sessions of different actions. But the 9th day, he totally forgot the first action.

    2- After, I started combining two different actions in the same training, but I found he was totally messed up.

    3. 20 days after I started the 1 week sessions, for 3 weeks, and was similar effect than the first trial. This is my conclusion, is not better to keep on forcing the same action as it gets the same effect.

    Maybe I should be trying a 2 day training 5-7 minutes/time instead of one session of 15 min. And in each session, a different action, so maybe he might be get used to manage multiple behaviours. One in the morning and one in the night. Even 1 extra session in the mid-day on the week ends.

    The three minimum movements I would like him to master before 1 year old are sit, lie down and come back (reliable recall). I would like to practise with him agility, but I believe that if he doesn't have a good obedience basis before 1 year I won't be able to make him perform good at agility.

    Definitely the time I enjoy the most of the puppy is during the training sessions for sure. Its so cute staring at me trying to figure out my next movement. Thats probably why I try to keep up the job as constantly as possible.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I believe my dog reads this forum! :D
    Today for some reason has perfomed impressive for first time 3 different order combos like sit - platz - sit with no double command or error I believe he has finally learnt this two orders. Should I continue reinforcing this orders or should I move forward with next order?