Training for protection??

 

BIte work may be a rule out for SAR.  Check with the certifying organizations.  I do not remember if you have young children, but that would also be a concern for me as the puppy is learning the rules.  Kids and puppies tend to forget. 

Bite inhibition is a pretty important skill for puppies that will not be living and working on sport or protection.  I think this might be something to strongly consider before committing to one discipline or the other.

No small children, my son 16. I have talked with both trainers, and they actually recommend the cross training, which surprised me. They both agree to teach when and what to bite, and more so when to let go on command. I do have two other malinois, but they just don't have the extreme drive this girl has. My main concern is she gets very excited and starts jumping and biting, and it needs to be corrected WITHOUT ruining her drive. I know in the wrong hands this dog could easily become a nightmare!

Now the protection training we will be doing is not the full aggresion training the PD uses. She will be monitored as she grows to make sure there is not aggresion problems. So far her biting is in play, but I am amazed how fast and strong she bites for a young puppy. It can turn into her being mean, so we do want to "control" it.

juliemule

Now the protection training we will be doing is not the full aggresion training the PD uses. She will be monitored as she grows to make sure there is not aggresion problems. So far her biting is in play, but I am amazed how fast and strong she bites for a young puppy. It can turn into her being mean, so we do want to "control" it.

 

 There is no reason to think that a drivey puppy who is biting in play will turn "mean". Have you ever watched puppies play with their littermates? Lots of biting going on there, yet plenty o dogs grow up without becoming aggressive! I would try to often have a toy to direct her to when she gets too wound up. Also if she starts getting too bitey in her play, just stand up and walk away, pick her up and put her away or when she is older, ask her to sit and wait for a few seconds then direct her to a toy.

 Dogs aren't taught to bite or to not bite - it's just something dogs are wired to do. All dogs already know how to bite and presented with the wrong circumstances, they will. Through socialization and training, we greatly reduce the chances dogs will feel they need to bite. I have to say that working at a grooming shop has made me think that the majority of dogs already know bite inhibition. I have been "bitten" countless times by dogs when doing something they didn't like but it is rare for any to break skin. These aren't dogs who were taught bite inhibition, most likely like most pet dogs they were taught not to ever make contact with human skin at home. IMO an inhibited bite is a natural way dogs warn when showing teeth or vocalizing hasn't worked. That said, some dogs do have naturally harder mouths and IMO you can teach your puppy not to bite you hard in play and still work them in protection sports (where they are supposed to bite hard).

 Protection training doesn't make dogs unsafe. Of all the reports of serious dog attacks, it is rare to hear of any that involve SchH trained or even personal protection trained dogs. The few that do, when looked into deeper generally involve someone who was trying to train the dog in protection at home themselves and/or dogs trained using really poor methods. I know someone here who's dog badly bit a child visiting her house. She would tell you that the dog was SchH trained but talk to the club she used to train to and you get another story - they told her they weren't willing to work her dog in protection because he wasn't sound enough for the work and later asked her to not come back to the club because they found out she was trying to train protection on her own with him. SchH clubs certainly don't want to get a bad reputation and I have known multiple people who were told "sorry but your dog just isn't cut out for protection work". They also generally stress that you can't come just for protection, you must work the dog in obedience and tracking too. Lots of people have protection or sport dogs with children. To be honest, some of the soundest dogs I have been around - the dogs I would worry the least about biting in every day situations are protection/sport GSDs.

juliemule

Now the protection training we will be doing is not the full aggresion training the PD uses. She will be monitored as she grows to make sure there is not aggresion problems. So far her biting is in play, but I am amazed how fast and strong she bites for a young puppy. It can turn into her being mean, so we do want to "control" it.

Is the breeder Ivan Balabanov? Is that who you train with right now, Ivan and Carrie Silva? If so, I would just do what they say about the pup and let them work the pup for you.

As for protection training - I don't understand what you mean when you say you want to do "full aggression" training but you want "no aggression problems" and don't want to turn her into being "mean". This is just my opinion: if you want to put the dog through that kind of training, you are going to end up with a dog that will have an edge to her and has a bit of "mean" in her. That's just the way it is. The low level sports dogs may look at protection as a big game and it is a big game when we first teach them but when the dogs get bigger and stronger and older, things get a lot more serious and we do turn up the heat on the dogs and we don't play "games" with them anymore. As a helper/decoy, when I work an adult dog with good nerves and courage, I don't go "Alright, big boy, let's tug". No, I'm bringing the fight to him and I expect the dog to give it right back to me with aggression and fight. Training like this will have an effect on the dog. But this is not to say the dog will be out of control. In fact, with dogs seriously training in bitework, control is more important than ever. This is where strong obedience training comes in (and Ivan and Carrie are masters at it). A dog with the right genetic and the right kind of training will become a very strong, confident dog, a dog that is not going to shy away from any confrontation or fight (in fact, depends on the dog, they may relish them) and you just have to be okay with that.

Sorry, I think that was misunderstood. I know the training won't make her mean, I intended that as NOT training a dog with this much drive and potential, and is biting so much can turn into not just play bites, but "Hey I'm the boss" as puppies do with litter mates.

Since she is such a bred to work thing she needs a job! The training Mark Smith is recommending is not the agitation and teasing to the extent of making her mad. It will be just enough to get her attention. We have been doing this at home already and she is on a sleeve in a second and loves it!

The mother of this dog came from Ot Vitosha, I wish we were close enough to use them for the training, but I highly respect Mr. Smith's training and opinions.

I was concerned with her constant biting, that a toy won't distract. That I was told was a good thing (??) She needs to focus and she is, just on my leg instead lol. I have found now that cookies work to momentarily redirect her. I don't however, want her to think she is being rewarding for latching onto my leg! I tried the crying out in pain, and she tightens her grip and growls. Jason, as you put it, she relishes a fight already. We have really worked on the "let go" command, and now she is understanding and at least temporarily letting go.

I do want to be certain she stays friendly. What I mean by aggresion problems, I want to be able to take her in a crowd, with no worries. Our old male is very friendly, yet will bite on command. I don't mind a dog with an edge, but for search work I do want her to know when and when not to gaurd and bite. I agree that with the right training she should fully be able to understand and handle both SAR and bite work. She is an extremely well bred smart little girl.

Oh also, if I try to just walk away, she is attached to my leg and just hangs on and is drug across the floor. With the malinois I have had, she by far has the most drive and intense attention.

 

A tug option for a reward is fine for SAR.  As to redirection, you need to consider the reinforcement value of being drug across the floor.  Way high if you consider it is maintaining the behavior.  The animation must come from the toy or sleeve, not from you.  Redirection will work you just need to wait it out.  It is very much a matter of timing in all training.

So think slower, move slower, and pause before offering the toy.  If you are essentially inanimate and then this lively interesting toy appears, redirection is far more likely to be successful.  You may even find that throwing a toy to break the hold (again wait her out) then offering the tug toy when she runs back to you may help you  break her focus on human clothing as a tug object.

If you get her into SAR training now, you will be able to redirect her attention and ability much faster.  You may not be able to do much officially but being on site, talking to other handlers, finding ways to puppify some of the training exercises is worth considering.  You may wish to contact Kim Glimore at Big Mountain Belgians.  She has been in SAR for years with Tervs so she understands the belgian mind.  She is in Montana and works for Flat River Rescue if I remember.  You can also find SAR assistance via BELG L the belgian discussion list.

Two things...

1.  The dog will be well past the stage of dealing with this by the time it is mature enough to really work protection, especially a breed like Mals that are known to be more reactive and show more nerve in protection work.  You would not be doing any real protection training until the dog is a year or so.  I would just deal with the biting and mouthing like normal puppy biting and mouthing.  How much you put up with is up to you.  I don't put up with a whole lot, and I don't excuse behaviors I don't want because the dog is a Schutzhund dog or protection dog.  There's no reason the dog can't know the different.

2.  Many SAR groups will not accept dogs with protection or bitework training.  I'm not sure if that's a state regulation or the SAR team's decision but I've heard this is a fairly common restriction.

Well an update, Greta is doing wonderful. She is in her advanced obediance and will take her 'good citizen' test next week. She is completely friendly, unless told she will then alert and bite on command (still puppy stages).

Her SAR is going amazingly. She will ground track and air scent as needed. We have still not been able to find a SAR group nearby. She is working with the police department here and we will work on getting certified as she matures.

Amazing dog, I am so impressed with her working drive at such a young age. We only use her harness to search, and when she sees it, its like telling a kid we are going to disneyland! The cadaver work is going real well too, though I can tell she enjoys the live tracking better.

Oh also meant to add, her biting is improving. We have really stressed the Ous command 'let go' and she has learned to bite "easy" lol while playing.