Dog Community

Buddy needs some nutritional advice

Posted : 8/3/2010 5:02:59 PM

As recommended by the vet, I put Buddy (11 years old) on Hills JD rx to help his mobility issues. This, as a result of my telling the vet about his loose footing and rear leg weakness. He's been on it for about a month now, if I remember correctly.

This food is corn-based and has about 17% protein. The food he was on previously was TOTW Salmon which is about 25% protein.

The issue is that he seems to be foraging in the earth for more...something, I don't know what...protein?. He'll do this "hunt for food in the ground" typically right before his regular feeding time, however...its not limited to this time.

Anyway, I thought maybe his body is craving more protein. So, I started topping his RX food with canned TOTW; and yesterday I added a cup of TOTW kibble. I think that serving was too much. It was 2 cups of the RX, 1 cup of the TOTW kibble and a heap of the TOTW can. He only ate about half of it and said..."I full Ma."

Also, he seems to be losing more weight...I can see his ribs. I know we want to keep him thin and the vet said getting him to 104 would be good. He was 114 at last weigh in. That was another reason I thought we could afford more food at mealtimes.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Ideas as to why he is foraging?

jessies_mom

Posted : 8/3/2010 6:14:27 PM

I have no idea Barbara, but you may get some help if you post on K9 Kitchen;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/

I hope you figure this out.

kpwlee

Posted : 8/3/2010 6:49:41 PM

Barb I don't know anything about why you would feed any dog with hind leg weakness a low protein food, that isn't an accusatory or negative comment just a statement of ignorance.

That said from what I understand seniors need a low fat, medium high protein (25-30%) food in order to maintain muscle.

The meal you described sounds like a HUGE meal! In your shoes I might try adding some meat (with a bit of calcium) to increase the protein of the Science Diet - this is presuming that you are getting the desired results from the SD prescription diet.

But keep in mind I am just guessing no real knowledge here LOL

Good luck and give that big boy a belly rub for me!

Oh and I would weigh him and see where he is before adding too many calories. If the vet says 104lbs would be good I would happily bring him near that and then see about leveling things off. It will be a huge switch to see him like this but so much better on his joints

jennie_c_d

Posted : 8/3/2010 6:52:16 PM

Emma got the opposite of hungry, on her prescription diet. She started needing less and less, til I had to find a vitamin for her. I'd talk to the vet about it. Maybe the food isn't working for him, and he needs something more. Maybe some enzymes would help him absorb it?

Dawnben

Posted : 8/3/2010 7:35:18 PM

I would try and find a lower protean food that was not corn based. I would add glucosamine to his diet for the mobility issue it helps with the problem Trader Joe's has it in chewable tablets for dogs used it for my Rotties weak hips and it made a huge difference. The problem with the prescription diets the are all poor ingredients. Innova Senior Dry Dog Food is low in protean but has quality ingredients. This site will explain what glucosamine does. If you choose to use it I would start with 1500 twice a day. If after 2 week you see no improvement raise it 500 per dose. http://www.vetinfo.com/effects-glucosamine-dogs.html

Dawnben

Posted : 8/3/2010 7:45:34 PM

He may be foraging for grass the food may give him a tummy ache At the root of each blade of grass lie soil-based probiotics (SBOs). SBOs are where the probiotics within yogurt originally come from – grass has probiotics, cows eat probiotics, we milk cows and make yogurt out of the milk. Dogs take out the middleman and go straight for the grass. Canines, both dogs and wolves, are omnivores meaning they eat everything, unlike cats that are almost strictly carnivores. When a wolf makes a kill, the first part of the animal they eat is the viscera including the stomach contents. Since most of the animals they kill are herbivores, the stomach contents are made up almost entirely of grass and leaves as well as soil-based probiotics and digestive enzymes. Because the wolves diet is supplemented with partially digested grass, they do not need to eat grass or ‘graze’ and rarely suffer from any digestive issues.

calliecritturs

Posted : 8/3/2010 10:50:37 PM

kpwlee
Barb I don't know anything about why you would feed any dog with hind leg weakness a low protein food

My instant guess would be because protein creates energy and if you have a dog who is not *able* to be active you don't want him full of unburned energy -- it can be like feeding a dog "rocket fuel" and leaving them with no place to burn it off.

I know the trend today is for higher protein -- but in all my years of really LONG-lived dogs I have never found a high-protein diet for a dog not able to really burn it helpful. I know I'm in the minority but my own personal experience tends to not support the current trend of high protein for all.

kpwlee

Posted : 8/4/2010 6:09:43 AM

calliecritturs
I know the trend today is for higher protein -- but in all my years of really LONG-lived dogs I have never found a high-protein diet for a dog not able to really burn it helpful. I know I'm in the minority but my own personal experience tends to not support the current trend of high protein for all.

I understand - I just think that 17% is low - 25-26% would be better without being high protein.

I know my neighbor's golden who isn't as old as Buddy but has severe joint issues has done fabulously when the owner went from a low protein food to a mid protein/low fat food. He is thinner and has more muscle than when he was a young dog

jessies_mom

Posted : 8/4/2010 12:08:01 PM

calliecritturs
I know the trend today is for higher protein -- but in all my years of really LONG-lived dogs I have never found a high-protein diet for a dog not able to really burn it helpful. I know I'm in the minority but my own personal experience tends to not support the current trend of high protein for all

High protein shouldn't be a problem as long as the kidneys are healthy; the excess protein is excreted in the urine.

Barb, if you want to know how much protein Buddy's getting from the j/d, the formula is;

percentage of protein divided by kilocalories per kilogram, multiplied by 10,000. That will give you the grams of protein in 1,000 calories of the j/d.

I have to be careful about the amount of protein Jessie has because it is second to fat in stimulating enzyme production by the pancreas, but Monica said all dogs need at least one gram of protein per pound of body weight or muscle wasting will occur. Here's what I do; her kibble gives her about 34 grams of protein. I add one cooked egg white and 3 ounces of boiled turkey breast to her food daily for a total of 63 grams of protein. If I tried to give her the protein she needs feeding her only the dry food, she would get almost twice the amount of calories; this way she is getting adequate nutrition plus enough protein. You can go to nutritiondata.com and find all the information you need for supplementing Buddy's diet with the amount of protein he needs.

calliecritturs

Posted : 8/4/2010 2:32:03 PM

I also want to say -- with *most* kibbles lower protein tends to mean higher carbs. That's not a good trade-off. My dogs may not eat super high protein but they DO get veggies instead of grain carbs.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 8/4/2010 3:30:12 PM

jessies_mom
I have to be careful about the amount of protein Jessie has because it is second to fat in stimulating enzyme production by the pancreas, but Monica said all dogs need at least one gram of protein per pound of body weight or muscle wasting will occur. Here's what I do; her kibble gives her about 34 grams of protein. I add one cooked egg white and 3 ounces of boiled turkey breast to her food daily for a total of 63 grams of protein. If I tried to give her the protein she needs feeding her only the dry food, she would get almost twice the amount of calories; this way she is getting adequate nutrition plus enough protein. You can go to nutritiondata.com and find all the information you need for supplementing Buddy's diet with the amount of protein he needs.

Awesome, awesome piece of information!!

jessies_mom

Posted : 8/4/2010 8:26:36 PM

jennie_c_d
Awesome, awesome piece of information!!

Monica's a great source of information, from her newsletters, to her books, to her group K9 Kitchen. Big Smile

CoBuHe

Posted : 8/4/2010 8:35:38 PM

Oh, this hurts my brain. Embarrassed

I'll check out the website for sure...thanks for that. I'll want to calculate the protein for sure, because I think this is the key to his searching in the earth for nutrition.

He's been on 2000MG of Glucosomine with Chondroitin, MSM and Vitamin D since he was 4; and I think this is one of the reasons why we don't have joint issues in general aside from aging arthritis. I'm not convinced his rear leg issues are related to his spine which is why the vet strongly encouraged me to put him on the RX. I told myself that I'll try it...but if I don't see progress in his footing I'd put him back totally on the TOTW.

He still shows weakness in his rear legs, loosing footing frequently while walking normally. The difference I see with his rear legs after having been on this RX food for a month or so is when he is kicking backwards like they do after eliminating...like they want to cover it up. Now, he can lift his back legs up a bit more than before he started on the food.

Today his meals consisted of 1 cup each of the RX and TOTW, topped with about 2 teaspoons of the TOTW canned. Do you think doing that may take away from what the RX is supposed to do for him? Ugh.

jessies_mom

Posted : 8/5/2010 1:08:03 PM

CoBuHe
Do you think doing that may take away from what the RX is supposed to do for him? Ugh.

I glanced at Hill's website and the j/d is high in omega 3's, about 3.8%. I looked at Taste of the Wild online and two varieties have .3% omega 3's and one has .4% . As you know, omega 3's are anti-inflammatory. If you're going to feed less j/d, then you'll need to add some fish oil to his diet as well as the joint supplements you have been using.

Is there a vet teaching hospital in your state? It may be a good idea to have Buddy evaluated by a neurologist. Rear leg weakness is sometimes a symptom of a neuropathy.

CoBuHe

Posted : 8/5/2010 5:07:50 PM

jessies_mom
Rear leg weakness is sometimes a symptom of a neuropathy.

Which can be a result of hypothyroidism; and the other condition you and I were talking about recently.

We do have the Texas A&M Veterinary college/hospital about 1.5 hours away. Buddy has been there before when he was a pup. OT, but: He had to have surgery on his shoulder when he was 7 months old due to bone spurs.

Before he was on the Rx, he was getting Fish oil supplements daily. I stopped giving that when we put him on this J/D, because the vet told me how heavy in Omega 3 it is.

Thanks, and keep the good advice and info sharing coming!