Lack of a work ethic - In Action!!

I haven't followed any previous threads, so sorry if this is redundant.

A few thoughts off the top:

- were you working on the same course the entire class? All three of my dogs get incredibly bored working on the same course over and over - in the classes we've taken they seem to do best when we work on a variety of sequences, usually short ones first, then longer ones, then shorter ones at the end again.

- You talk to Veronica a LOT - have you ever tried running her silently?  I've seen some dogs really perk up when the handler stops cheerleading and over-commanding (I have one myself lol).

- Similarly, it looks like you are touching or holding onto her collar several times in places where she may run off - have you tried using body language to steer her vs physical contact?  Physical contact can be off-putting to some dogs (I have one of those too!).

- Veronica really reacted to one of your verbal expressions of displeasure (something like a quiet "oh no";), I think in the second or third video, and seems to shut down after that.  It's incredibly hard to do if you're used to talking a lot, but running silently may help minimize that reaction.

- Was there a specific reason you asked Veronica to continue running a course she already indicated she was "done with"? It's taken me a few years to learn that with *all* of my dogs I need to stop while I'm ahead.  In your situation, I would've held myself responsible for pushing the dog too far, asked for *one* easy behavior and then rewarded and called it quits for the day.  I know if I push my dogs past their quitting point I get crappy performance and I get more frustrated which doesn't help anyone.  I've finally learned that I need to keep an eye on how my dog is reacting to me on course so I can end our work *before* they want to quit and it has really helped.

- I always hesitate to mention this but I think it could be part of the issue, especially given the heat.  From the videos it appears that Veronica might need to lose a bit of weight - she's not horribly overweight or anything, but I see better results in performance dogs if they are kept on the low end of normal weight-wise and she appears to be on the high end of normal.  In a smooth coated dog like Veronica, you'd want to see a bit of rib while she's in motion and I didn't see that in the videos. 

HTH - please ask if you have any questions or need clarification!

I agree with everything stardog said, noticed the weight as well, but even a perfectly conditioned dog will be effected by heat and humidity eventually.  Nikon nearly shut down on Tues.  There I was ready to train train train since we have a trial tomorrow (and we are not as good or as experienced as Veronica) and after two sequences the instructor commented she'd never seen him tired before. When the dog is just done physically, I switch to doing something more mental, like practicing 2on2off contacts by having the dog wrap or backup onto the contact so there's no running or physical exertion.

It's fun to run longer sequences but I think there is more value in doing 3 or so sequences setup to train something (like a pinwheel, cross, serpentine, difficult entry, etc) rather than continuously running full courses or long sequences.  I think the dogs that are new still need a lot of reward and encouragement.  Similar to when I am training for a BH in Schutzhund (and obedience routine that is basically 7-10 minutes of nonstop heeling) we continuously stop to reward, play, then keep going.  Really, only in competition do I do the entire thing without rewarding and/or encouraging the dog, and the nice thing with agility is it's much shorter and you can say "yes good dog!" and encourage during competition.  Nikon is doing 4 runs in an agility trial tomorrow and he's never once run a full course, but I've built so much anticipation for the reward and play at the end of a sequence that I'm confident he will do it.  The same was true of my other dog, her first competition was her first full courses, first full height dog walk and A-frame, and she Q'd every run and won three of four.

Thank you both for the replies and the advice.

 Stardog - we take a course and divide it in half. First everyone runs the first half; then everyone runs the 2nd half; then we put it all together and run the whole course...so I guess there is a bit of redundancy.

 I do talk to her ALLOT! And My old trainer used to tell me to shut up. . If I were to give you a thoughtful answer; I would probably say that Veronica does well when I give her encouragement and direction. Perhaps in reality I just can't stop running my mouth. I will try to shut up and see if I notice a difference,

 In the first 2 videos; I think what looked like my touching her collar was treating her on the end of contacts...unless I'm missing something. I usually don't touch her on the course (except in the 3rd video where I led her to the start line because she wasn't coming voluntarily)...I do wave treats under her nose at times...

 Good catch on Veronica shutting down at a verbal reprimmand. Not even a reprimmand just a vocalization of displeasure. She is extremely sensitive. I said in another thread how I felt like I was pushing her and pressuring her to do things "right" because whenever she does something sloppy or not right and I try to "correct" her (as in verbally tell her it was wrong...she shuts down). So where agility is concerned...we're back to I need to shut my mouth.

 The specific reason I asked Veronica to continue running the course after she told me she was done is because...I'm an idiot. Seriously, I don't know what I was thinking. I guess I was thinking, "what do you mean you're done? The class isn't over yet!  Everyone knows you go until the class is over"! So yeah, I need to be a little less rigid and pay more attention to my dog. I've never done any of this before...so it's all new; and I'm all over the learning curve...2 steps forward; 3 steps back.

Veronica does need to lose weight. It is somewhat of a losing battle since we have an in-law apartment and Veronica has an Italian Grammy who provides "daycare" service. I am planning when the weather cools to amp up her exercise. She is also very food motivated; and since her Grammy provides a plethora of snacks - I am hoping I can get her more into tug & play so that I can use that as a training reward and not rely on treats so much.

 Liesje - That makes sense as well. Not diminishing Veronica's little weight problem; but she also does not like the warm weather or the humidity. Now that I think about it; she did this last summer too - and had more gusto in the fall. Not that she was necessarily following me mind you...but she had more energy.

 I understand what you are saying about shorter sequences. I ordered a set of 4 jumps and I have weave poles...I am trying to get together a few things so we can practice on our own at our leisure in the back yard. I think classes make me a little anxious because there are so many people around and everyone is watching.

 First I have to say that I don't see a dog with a poor work ethic at all. Veronica seems to be trying very hard for you. 

  I believe that most of your problem is related to your dog being overweight. The strain of the extra weight on her joints seems to be causing her to be very hesitant to jump. In the third video, she actually appears to be favoring one of her legs a bit when she "quit" the first time. Then you get her back out of the tunnel and she gets right up to the one jump, then stops and runs off again. She wants to do it but can't.

 If you want to pursue agility with this dog, you need to get the extra weight off of her. Until you do, it is unfair to keep asking her to run courses like this. Her dislike of the heat likely has to do with her weight issue as well. If you want to continue doing agility class in the meantime, I wouldn't jump her at all. Put all the jumps down and work jump sequences just through the uprights. Cut the courses short - just do a few obstacles and make a big deal about how great she did. Stop while she is still happy and before she shows signs of giving up, even if you only get one or two runs in each class. If you do this I think you will see a huge improvement in her attitude. Continuing to jump her while it is such a physical strain on her will continue to sour her on agility, which can remain a problem even once the weight is off.

 Really good points made in this thread so far, especially the weight and joint issue.

I'm going to speak kind of frankly and please don't take this the wrong way. It looks to me like the dog is doing the agility course for you and not because she enjoys it. She doesn't look comfortable making the landings on the jumps, almost like she is bracing herself for the impact. If you watch a lot of agility videos of dogs who really enjoy and can't wait for the next obstacle, you'll see what I'm talking about. Some of this probably has to do with the head and her weight, but you might want to think about having a doctor xray her joints to make sure there is no arthritis going on (or something similar)

 Also, I have a dog who is very sensitive to my body language, tone of voice, etc. The tiniest amount of pressure and she shuts down. She loves agility, search and rescue, etc. but when I try to refine her techniques so we can advance, the fun goes out of it for her. It's been hard to swallow because I know that she can be so much more. However, I've learned that I just need to keep things fun and not make everything a super training session.

Jewlieee

 Also, I have a dog who is very sensitive to my body language, tone of voice, etc. The tiniest amount of pressure and she shuts down. She loves agility, search and rescue, etc. but when I try to refine her techniques so we can advance, the fun goes out of it for her. It's been hard to swallow because I know that she can be so much more. However, I've learned that I just need to keep things fun and not make everything a super training session.

 Do you read Susan Garrett's blog? She has had several good posts about teaching dogs to work through stress this year:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/05/stressing-dogs-dancing-humans-weirdly-inappropriate-reinforcement/

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/05/stressed-it-is-more-than-just-desserts-spelled-backwards/

 http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/03/stressed/

 And most recently:

Thank you guys for the thoughtful responses..

 I know that she has to lose weight. It has been  a struggle as we have an in-law apartment and my 70 year old mother lives with us. She watches the dog while we are at work and both myself and the vet have not been able to convince her that the dog is overweight. I of course am guilty too; as I do allot of trainng and Veronica is very food motivated. I had thought part of the answer was to try to increase her exercise but now I am not sure.

While I realize we have to address the weight issue; I rather was assuming her lack of enthusiasm was more a motivational issue. She definitly is one of those dogs that shuts down at the slightest hint of criticism; and it's hard because she's also not one of those dogs that lives to please you...she likes to do her own thing.

I have not read Susan Garrett's blog so I am off to check that out.

However here is a video from this past Saturday's class. Saturday was quite hot; put not quite as humid as it has been. I thought she was more motivated and did much better.It has allot of jumps in it. Can you please watch it with an eye for her physical stress/comfort level and give me feedback? I don't want her to do anything that will hurt her.

Thanks for taking the time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-piUy3c5Wk

Veronica's Mom

Thank you guys for the thoughtful responses..

 I know that she has to lose weight. It has been  a struggle as we have an in-law apartment and my 70 year old mother lives with us. She watches the dog while we are at work and both myself and the vet have not been able to convince her that the dog is overweight. I of course am guilty too; as I do allot of trainng and Veronica is very food motivated. I had thought part of the answer was to try to increase her exercise but now I am not sure.

  I don't think you will be able to get the weight off just by upping her exercise. What do you currently feed? I have found the raw diet to be the best at getting weight off dogs. But it is hard if you have other people stuffing your dog full of junk food all day. All those snacks need to be taken into account when she is fed. And the treats you use for training also need to be taken into account when you are feeding her meals. Is there anyway you could prepare healthier "snack" options for her throughout the day and just feed her a lot less for her meal? I'm thinking things like dehydrated or dryed meats, a scrambled egg, frozen yogurt cubes, etc. Would your mother be ok with swapping what she gives her with what you have set aside for her? I'd also do raw food instead of kibble or at least grain free kibble and keep the treats grain free as well.

Veronica's Mom

While I realize we have to address the weight issue; I rather was assuming her lack of enthusiasm was more a motivational issue. She definitly is one of those dogs that shuts down at the slightest hint of criticism; and it's hard because she's also not one of those dogs that lives to please you...she likes to do her own thing.

  She actually seems pretty  willing in the videos, I don't think you are giving her enough credit for the effort she is putting into working for you. Even though she appears uncomfortable with the jumping she makes good attempt to do what you want her to do. In the first video, she actually does pretty well. Being overweight is going to cause a dog to have a lack of enthusiasm about doing things involving a lot of physical exercise. The fact that she is stressed about doing something uncomfortable will also make her shut down much easier if any other stress (such as correction) is added in. 

Veronica's Mom

However here is a video from this past Saturday's class. Saturday was quite hot; put not quite as humid as it has been. I thought she was more motivated and did much better.It has allot of jumps in it. Can you please watch it with an eye for her physical stress/comfort level and give me feedback? I don't want her to do anything that will hurt her.

Thanks for taking the time! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-piUy3c5Wk

 She is working well with you here and doesn't give up even when you correct her. I'm curious as to which run this was and what the other ones looked like on this day. She still refuses a jump, sniffs a bit between a couple jumps (could be stress or could be a good smell) and starts showing signs of loss of stamina by the last part of the course. She lands hard after some of the jumps, which is likely entirely due to being overweight. She seems to have a lot of potential as an agility dog!

 Asking her to do long courses with lots of jumps can potentially be harmful to her if she isn't properly conditioned. The most common injury agility dogs face is ALC injuries and these injuries are much more likely when dogs are overweight or out of condition (also seem more common in spayed/neutered dogs). There is also an added strain on her joints and soft tissue. I'm not saying she is obese because obviously she isn't but in terms of performance dogs, she is much too overweight. It is nearly impossible to give training advice because it is hard to say how much is training and how much is her weight. I'm actually sort of surprised your instructor hasn't brought up the weight issue.

 Is there anyway you could keep going to classes and just set all the jumps on the ground for her run until she is more fit? Also for dogs who shut down easily, I wouldn't stop the run and make them do things that they missed. Just go on to the next obstacle and try to handle better the following run. Probably one of the most demotivating things for dogs is to have to stop forward motion to go fix something.

 I also suggest Silvia Trkman's site as a "must read" for people doing agility :)

 http://silvia.trkman.net/ (click on Our Training)

My apologies for taking so long to respond. You asked if I had video of the rest of her class and I did; I had to upload it to youtube. 

AgileGSD

  I don't think you will be able to get the weight off just by upping her exercise. What do you currently feed? I have found the raw diet to be the best at getting weight off dogs. But it is hard if you have other people stuffing your dog full of junk food all day. All those snacks need to be taken into account when she is fed. And the treats you use for training also need to be taken into account when you are feeding her meals. Is there anyway you could prepare healthier "snack" options for her throughout the day and just feed her a lot less for her meal? I'm thinking things like dehydrated or dryed meats, a scrambled egg, frozen yogurt cubes, etc. Would your mother be ok with swapping what she gives her with what you have set aside for her? I'd also do raw food instead of kibble or at least grain free kibble and keep the treats grain free as well.

We are in the process of switching from California Natural to Fromm. I do have some concerns that would impact my personal comfort in going raw. I have been speaking to the mother and hopefully can at least minimize the damage that is being done. I'm starting to portion out her kibble for breakfast in individual baggies and I will make sure she has some healthy snack options available. 

AgileGSD

  She is working well with you here and doesn't give up even when you correct her. I'm curious as to which run this was and what the other ones looked like on this day. She still refuses a jump, sniffs a bit between a couple jumps (could be stress or could be a good smell) and starts showing signs of loss of stamina by the last part of the course. She lands hard after some of the jumps, which is likely entirely due to being overweight. She seems to have a lot of potential as an agility dog!

This run was the last run of class: the full course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-piUy3c5Wk

I'm not sure about the sniffing; but I think the missed jump was more handler error than dog refusal. The jump after the red double jump was actually way off to the left. We have consistently had a problem with jumps on this angle. Veronica doesn't fully grasp the "out" command and I'm certain I don't fully grasp the best way to teach it to her. I know on one occasion I tried to just make a beeline towards the jump and we collided and both went down like a ton of bricks.

 This was the first run we did in class. We did only the first half of the course:

I think there was some fascinating smell by the dog walk because other dogs were checking it out too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diNdjEPykvc

then we waited for all the other dogs to run the first half; then we ran the second half:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDDinM2-Q-w

AgileGSD

 Is there anyway you could keep going to classes and just set all the jumps on the ground for her run until she is more fit? Also for dogs who shut down easily, I wouldn't stop the run and make them do things that they missed. Just go on to the next obstacle and try to handle better the following run. Probably one of the most demotivating things for dogs is to have to stop forward motion to go fix something.

That is good advice. I don't know that I want to stop her from jumping completely; but I definitly will not push her to do anymore than she wants to do. And I definitly hear you on not making her go back and do do-overs on mistakes.

Thank you for the advice and for your encouragement.

 Better than just portioning her breakfast, you can stuff it with healthy, filling additives (like pumpkin or mashed green beans, or a spoonful of fat free, Greek yogurt, YUM! even unsweetened apple sauce) and freeze them. Grandma can give her great, super duper, toys FULL of "treats" throughout the day. You'll have her eating more slowly, in smaller portions, and getting no junk. I bet it'll help.