Clicker training "hold"

 I'd say shape duration by requiring slightly more time holding before clicking and allowing him to drop. Hopefully someone has done this with a dog, because the closest I can get is that I am teaching a kid who doesn't like to have things on his hands to wear an oven mitt. So, we start on/off, on count 1/off, I was able to go to the current step of on count to 5/off. That my or may not be possible, you might have to go 1,2,3,4,5.

 He drops it immediately.  He seems to think the click is for gripping the object and isn't making the connection to hold the object.

Is there any chance the click is reinforcing the beginning of the release of the object rather than the grip/hold (esp. if he's dropping it immediately)? It's what first came to mind when I read your posts, but it's just a thought. Does he hold any toys for any length of time?

FrisbyPI

Is there any chance the click is reinforcing the beginning of the release of the object rather than the grip/hold (esp. if he's dropping it immediately)? It's what first came to mind when I read your posts, but it's just a thought. Does he hold any toys for any length of time?

This might be what's happening, at least in his mind.  I'm not sure how else to free shape it though, without building it up.  I first clicked for any interaction (like touching it with his nose).  Then I clicked for interaction with the mouth.  Then I clicked for a good grip with the mouth, but that's where we are stuck.

He holds lots of toys.  He tugs, he retrieves naturally and brings the toy back still in his mouth for me to tug with.  He also is trained in protection so he knows biting, fighting, and carrying a sleeve.

Thinking back to something else I tried to teach the same kid (and messed up) would it be possible to teach the same behavior with a different object, or a series of different objects, and attempt to transfer back to this one. Possibly teaching this with cues different than those that will become your final cues. Again, if you mess it up, you just get rid of those things. This is exactly what I did. I messed up with one object, and shaped down instead of up. I got rid of that and taught with a new object. In my case, I never needed the first object again, but you would need to go back to that object.

Would it be possible for you to tape yourself to see exactly what point you're clicking at?

Liesje

This might be what's happening, at least in his mind.  I'm not sure how else to free shape it though, without building it up.  I first clicked for any interaction (like touching it with his nose).  Then I clicked for interaction with the mouth.  Then I clicked for a good grip with the mouth, but that's where we are stuck.

 Bevo, Shooter, & now Cher, to a certain extent, got confused by the hold.  I use a chin scratch to encourage the hold. 

I have them take the dumbbell, then I immediately start to scratch their chin.  They lift their head a little & it seems to make it a little more difficult to drop the dumbbell.  After a brief hold, I tell them "good hold" & treat.  I don't clicker it, but instead voice mark it because it's too difficult to manage clicker, & treats while you are scratching their chin.  As the holds get more reliable, I fade the scratching out. 

The only issue that I've had with this method is that, initially, their grip changes & doesn't look as pretty, but I've found that once the scratching is faded out, they adjust their grip back to normal.

For us, this method has yielded results quickly.  Bevo was holding nicely in two days.  Shooter took five.  Cher is on day 3.  She is holding & she understands what hold is, but her little puppy brain gets distracted very quickly, so she's still a work in progress.

I've done almost exactly the same thing as Bevolasvegas describes, and it has worked well for me too. I've found the same thing, that it looks like the grip gets really sloppy, but I'm on dog number eight now, and the sloppy grip has always fixed itself eventually. One thing I've done to fade out the chin scratch is to have my dog on leash for this exercise. I only do my leash work after I have achieved a nice solid hold using the chin scratch alone. It's hard to describe, but what I do is hold the leash in such a way that it crosses under my dog's chin and helps hold his chin up. I can allow the leash to start to slack slightly and if I see that my dog is about to drop the dumbbell I can increase tension on the lead to keep his head up. Pretty quickly, I can just keep the leash slack. I find the leash under the chin especially helpful when I first try to get the dog to take a step or two with the dumbbell. Dogs naturally drop their head as they step forward, and this is a time when a dog with even a pretty solid stationary hold is tempted to drop the dumbbell. Me bending over to do the chin scratch and walk backward, and try to entice the dog to walk doesn't work well, because it puts me in that intimidating bending-over-the-dog posture, which makes the dog lower his head even more, which makes him even more likely to drop the dumbbell. With the leash under the chin I can walk upright, like a true hominid ;-)

This is obviously a somewhat mechanical way to get over what turns out to be a training hump for a lot of dogs learning to retrieve. For someone who is an absolute free-shaping purist, this method does involve a bit of cheating. But honestly, when I went from trying to teach my first dog to retrieve purely by free shaping we got stuck at the hold stage for weeks. Both the dog and I were very frustrated. When I just gently mechanically prevented my dog from dropping the dumbbell with the chin scratch so that I had a success that I could reward, he was so relieved. He acted like "Is that all you wanted? Geez louise why didn't you tell me that weeks ago?" No ears were pinched, no muzzle was clamped shut over the dumbbell. Just a pleasant little chin scratch was what it took.

BEVOLASVEGAS

Liesje

This might be what's happening, at least in his mind.  I'm not sure how else to free shape it though, without building it up.  I first clicked for any interaction (like touching it with his nose).  Then I clicked for interaction with the mouth.  Then I clicked for a good grip with the mouth, but that's where we are stuck.

 Bevo, Shooter, & now Cher, to a certain extent, got confused by the hold.  I use a chin scratch to encourage the hold. 

I have them take the dumbbell, then I immediately start to scratch their chin.  They lift their head a little & it seems to make it a little more difficult to drop the dumbbell.  After a brief hold, I tell them "good hold" & treat.  I don't clicker it, but instead voice mark it because it's too difficult to manage clicker, & treats while you are scratching their chin.  As the holds get more reliable, I fade the scratching out. 

The only issue that I've had with this method is that, initially, their grip changes & doesn't look as pretty, but I've found that once the scratching is faded out, they adjust their grip back to normal.

For us, this method has yielded results quickly.  Bevo was holding nicely in two days.  Shooter took five.  Cher is on day 3.  She is holding & she understands what hold is, but her little puppy brain gets distracted very quickly, so she's still a work in progress.

This is how I did it, too, although I did click it.  Worked very well for Sioux, too.  I'm not a free shaping purist, I guess - I do what I think the dog will understand the easiest.

 If I have time tonight I will try these new tips and try to video...

 Hide the clicker in your pocket (so he is less likely to "throw behaviours";), and as he grips the object, pull gently to get the oppositional reflex.  Hopefully, he will respond by gripping harder/holding on, even if only for a second, giving you time to "click" and jackpot.

No idea if that would work, it's just what I would try!!

Here's the video: http://www.vimeo.com/8546870

In the first part I just charge the clicker for nothing or for simple things he knows.  In the second part I went back a step and clicked for interacting with his mouth (otherwise he will bark at it and claw at it).  I'm trying to click on time, and not inadvertently click a millisecond too late, while he is coming off or dropping the pipe.  In the third part, it shows a few of what I was getting last night - dropping it right away and/or offering other behaviors (he paws at it a few times) or stress (I think he whines a few times, I edited out the full barks!).  But I think there are two or three that show marked improvement.  You can't really tell in the video, but the few where I say "Yes!" are the ones where I felt the grip calm and firm, and he held onto it either until I took it out, or clicked (which gives him the OK to drop it).  Unfortunately, the best/longest ones are not in the clip because I didn't think he could do it so I turned the camera off.  Then when he started getting it, I was afraid to break the focus to turn the camera back on.  Luckily he did those few after I turned it back on, but the ones I missed were even longer.

I didn't really have the chance to scratch his chin, maybe he's not even at that point yet.  But I'm encouraged that I *felt* a difference between tonight and last night.  Also he was much better tonight with keeping at it for about 7 minutes.  Last night there was a lot more whining, barking, or offering other behaviors like right finishes.

Sorry I look disheveled!  Today was NOT my day *sigh*

Lies, it looks to me as if he's figuring out the hold quite nicely!  I would keep doing what you're doing, because it looks to me as if it's working.

Liesje

But I think there are two or three that show marked improvement.  You can't really tell in the video, but the few where I say "Yes!" are the ones where I felt the grip calm and firm, and he held onto it either until I took it out, or clicked (which gives him the OK to drop it).  Unfortunately, the best/longest ones are not in the clip because I didn't think he could do it so I turned the camera off. 

I sort of do it a bit different for my dogs. I click for firmness and not much else to start with as a firm bite == no mouthing and a ton of confidence.

I also tend to teach with the bar level, and then drop the level. One way to excite the firm bite is ask for a hold as the bar is moving..

 But different dogs different tactics...

poodleOwned

One way to excite the firm bite is ask for a hold as the bar is moving..

 But different dogs different tactics...

I've thought about this because I think a lot of people do start this way, but decided against it.  The main reason is that we do use many toys in training to excite playing and prey drive and tugging, but I need to have a clear difference between when we are playing, and when we are working.  Dumbell = formal retrieve work.  No playing with it, no tugging with it.  He hasn't had any grip issues in protection training itself, nor with targeting his reward balls or playing tug.  I could try to say "hold" when he's carrying other objects but I'm not sure it would really carry over, since his drive/state of mind is much different (sort of like saying "out" while playing tug is different than saying "out" to take the dumbell during retrieves is different than saying "out" during protection....same word, but very different to the dog so I want to train each one step by step and can't assume the behavior carries over).