Can someone provide me with articles or links?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Can someone provide me with articles or links?

    I want to send my dad and step mom articles and PROOF that feeding a diet heavy in corn or with any corn at all in it, could be causing their dog all her problems.  I've had many discussions with him before, but I don't think he believes me.

    His dog has:

    severe skin itching, mostly in her paws, some of it is in her butt area too, and she's a "scooter".   a dull coat.  constant ear infections and yeast in the ears.  the tendency to get warts all over her body...she just had 17 of them surgically removed.  horrible, stinky gas and big smelly poop. 

    I'd like something that states that dogs need protein based diets, like they'd get in the wild.  He grew up with Border collies on his farm, and they always got dinner scraps, but primarily they ate chicken carcasses and pork...both raw and cooked.  I tried to point out that those dogs were NOT out in the corn fields, ripping open an ear of corn and chowing down...he just doesn't listen.  It breaks my heart to see how much discomfort this dog is in. 

    His wife and he always comment on how shiny and soft Misty's fur is and I always say how it's from eating a good diet.  I always try to point out that she also doesn't chew her paws, or scratch or fart.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, really the problem isn't corn but the fact that cheap food usually substitutes some kind of vegetable gluten (corn is usually cheapest so it's most often used) for meat protein.  There's been several studies showing that corn gluten is insufficient to maintain dogs in optimum health.

    Here's one: 

    Statistical analysis revealed a moderate degree of correlation between increasing quantities of corn gluten, which is low in essential amino acids (i.e. lysine, tryptophan), and increasing loss of lean body mass over the 10-week study (R = 0.56). Furthermore, a moderate degree of correlation was observed between increasing concentrations of corn gluten protein and decreased expression of the p31 subunit of the 26S proteasome (R = 0.49). Additionally, the dogs consuming the 12% protein diets had a significant increase in fat mass regardless of the protein source. These findings suggest that lean body wasting in adult canines can be associated with the consumption of low protein diets consisting of predominantly corn gluten, which is likely due to imbalances or subclinical deficiencies of specific essential amino acids, and that low protein diets may augment accumulation of adipose tissue. Although the mechanisms remain unclear, alteration of molecular targets of skeletal muscle proteolysis, specifically involving the UP pathway occur.

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118844846/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

    Corn is not in and of itself evil.  I don't like GMO corn but it's VERY hard to get away from.  I don't think Eagle Pack uses it.  As an energy source, it's actually (ironically) one of the less objectionable grains - lower in gluten and easy to digest, and it's so high energy that a corn-based carb formula can use LESS of the grain to achieve the same level of nutrition.  Ie, I can feed less corn to my sheep than a food that is blended, because something called the TDN is higher in the pure corn.  In a dog food, that leaves room for more meat - yay!

    Sadly, a lot of holistic companies have bowed to people's perception that "corn is bad."

    Take the "children of Jerusalem" approach.  Buy him a bag of feed, something you think he'd be able to get readily and be okay feeding - nothing scary like Origen.  Try one of the Diamond Naturals formulas (there's no corn in them but the better thing is that they are simple, easy to find, and don't look fancy).  Or, if he's a Costco member, Kirkland's formula rocks and is probably cheaper than anything out there barring grocery store brands and Ol' Roy.  Heck, Purina One is better than most of those foods - yeah, it's got corn but see above and it's not too dependent on gluten.  But, Purina One is really pricey, ironically, compared to Diamond and Kirkland.

    Ask him to give it a whirl for the whole bag.  Challenge him to take a good picture of his dog before, smell his breath, look at his teeth, feel the handle of the coat.  Then again after two weeks.  Then, at the end of the bag.

    Sidenote:  The children of Jerusalem reference is from the Bible.  You know Daniel and the lion's den?  That same fella was captured when Jerusalem was conquered by Babylon.  He and his friends were noble teenagers, ie, members of the royal household.  Thus, they were incorporated into the king of Babylon's household to be trained as governors, accountants, etc.  They were placed in a boarding school with a common eating area.  They were, of course, Jews and the food was not kosher.  They refused to eat.

    The guy in charge started to sweat.  His head was literally on the line if any of his charges got sick or even looked less than amazingly well-fed. He would be under suspicion of siphoning off the good stuff for his own use!  So he begged them to eat.

    Daniel had an idea.  He said, "Give us just ten days.  Let us eat only vegetables and drink only water.  If you don't like the way we look after ten days, you can drag us to the king and let him execute us or send us to hard labor."

    The vegetarians in our midst will not be surprised to hear that Daniel and his friends not only were in rosy good health at the end of the ten days, but they had also visibly gained more muscle weight and strength compared to their comrades who partook of the delicacies that were sent them from the king's kitchen. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     What you're describing is also likely to be a result of allergens PERIOD.  Not just food allergens.  yes, food allergies are real but typically they aren't normally primary -- in other words, the body is probably allergic to tree, grass, and other pollens, dust, mold, etc. -- and when the body is already in an allergy high state, then stuff in food can really stick out like a sore thumb (which is why often when foods are switched you see improvement -- not just that "corn" or some specific substance was the ONLY problem).

    scooting is usually anal glands -- and a high protein/low bulk food likely is gonna make that *worse* not better -- some dogs just plain have anal gland problems, some don't.  It's not a pleasant task but you can express them at home 

     Ears too -- something like Zymox drops used daily can really help, particularly in allergy season.  (get that from the vet)

    Yes, a better quality food will likely help -- but it may simply be a dog with allergies to a lot of things

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove

     

    Sidenote:  The children of Jerusalem reference is from the Bible.  You know Daniel and the lion's den?  That same fella was captured when Jerusalem was conquered by Babylon.  He and his friends were noble teenagers, ie, members of the royal household.  Thus, they were incorporated into the king of Babylon's household to be trained as governors, accountants, etc.  They were placed in a boarding school with a common eating area.  They were, of course, Jews and the food was not kosher.  They refused to eat.

    The guy in charge started to sweat.  His head was literally on the line if any of his charges got sick or even looked less than amazingly well-fed. He would be under suspicion of siphoning off the good stuff for his own use!  So he begged them to eat.

    Daniel had an idea.  He said, "Give us just ten days.  Let us eat only vegetables and drink only water.  If you don't like the way we look after ten days, you can drag us to the king and let him execute us or send us to hard labor."

    The vegetarians in our midst will not be surprised to hear that Daniel and his friends not only were in rosy good health at the end of the ten days, but they had also visibly gained more muscle weight and strength compared to their comrades who partook of the delicacies that were sent them from the king's kitchen.



      Becca, you'd make a great Sunday school teacher.Big Smile  The study you linked is very interesting.
    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
     scooting is usually anal glands -- and a high protein/low bulk food likely is gonna make that *worse* not better -- some dogs just plain have anal gland problems, some don't.  It's not a pleasant task but you can express them at home 

     Ears too -- something like Zymox drops used daily can really help, particularly in allergy season.  (get that from the vet)

     She had her anal glands removed a few years back.

    They give her the ear drops every day already...she's just a mess and gets almost constant infections.

    • Gold Top Dog

    What foods are available in your area?  My family's Westie had almost all of the problems you've listed (minus the warts).  He's been allergy tested and is allergic to everything.  His skin problems seemed to get worse on Purina One, so I think I'd stay away from that (and all corn in general).  He has absolutely blossomed on California Natural fish & sweet potato -- and the price of that food isn't bad at all compared to some of the other "premium" brands.  The ear infections went away, he stopped chewing his feet and all of his hair grew back (he'd lost a LOT of it).  This dog is allergic to everything under the sun, but changing his food made a dramatic difference.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'd be interested in this, too.  My brother's dog has yeast in one ear and they've been having a hard time getting rid of it.  I don't know if changing his food would help or not.  Here are the ingredients in his food:

    Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soybean Oil, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, Iodized Salt, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Dried Chicken Cartilage, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Potassium Chloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

    I don't see any gluten, but there certainly is a lot of icky stuff in there, IMO. 

    ETA-an interesting side note about this stuff.  Harry will eat anything (he once ate a used dryer sheet, for goodness' sake!), and the last time we visited my bro, one kibble of this stuff was laying on the kitchen floor.  Harry walked by and sniffed it a few times and would not touch it, lol!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soybean Oil, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, 

    Okay, here's the breakdown on these ingredients.  This is about the worst possible food you can feed a dog with an itchy problems.  I'll give you some specific reasons and if you want, you can pass this on to your brother.

    • Ground whole corn: 
      • Not such a bad ingredient by itself.  If I could find a food with over 28% protein that was a named meat meal (a red game meat would be my preference), ground whole corn, and chicken fat, and vitamins and minerals and nothing else, I'd do a happy dance.  Whole corn is very low in protein (only 4% tops) but very high in energy, so I'd know there was no funny business going on.  That would be a food that would be basically meat protein and starch. 
      • HOWEVER, appearing first like this, oh dear, not a good sign.  Especially if the protein wasn't that high - less than 25%.  This food is likely MOSTLY CORN.  Fifty pounds of corn meal and table scraps would be healthier and cheaper. :( 
      • Not even sheep and cows are made to thrive on corn, much less carnivorous-adapted animals like dogs and cats. 
      • High corn in the diet can lower the pH in the gut.  "Friendly" bacteria which help the dog fight disease, and digest minerals needed for good skin, nervous function, digesting food in the stomach, and a vast list of other functions that need those minerals - these friendly bacteria need a higher pH to thrive.
      • With the minerals not being digested properly, they continue down the gut and irritate the lining.  An irritated gut lining allows irritants and allergens and bad bugs into the system.
    • Chicken By-Product Meal:
      • Also not necessarily a bad thing.  At least it's not mystery meat!  I don't have the technical description off the top of my head, but it's basically anything but the meat (though meat can include the skin I think, right?).  It can be rich organ meats, gizzards (which are not organs, they are muscle meat) and beneficial brain, cartilage, skin, or necks, bones, etc - all of which dogs can use and are good for them. 
      • But, the problem is that we don't know how much is organ and how much bone and how much other oddball parts.  It can also include undeveloped eggs (as when laying hens are processed), which can be a problem if your dog is allergic to eggs.
      • And if you are paying for a meat-based product, this ain't it.  The only named animal meat source is this chicken by-product meal.  A dog that is itchy needs real animal meat almost certainly, not to be maintained like a feedlot cow.  No offense, but I suspect most people don't really think of that.   They read the front of the bag ("With REAL CHICKEN!  Including healthy whole corn and flaxseed for skin health!" [we'll discuss the flax in a minute]).
    • Soybean Meal:
      • Here's your protein source.  Not a gluten, but still a vegetable protein.  In fact, I'd rather see corn gluten.  I'm pretty open minded about dog food ingredients but I've never seen any dog do better on soybean meal versus any other source of protein.  So many of even the cheapest dog foods have dropped soybean products from their formulations, that I suspect there's a study or two or six out there documenting the problems I've seen anecdotally.
      • SBM really does seem to undermine a dog's ability to deal with other potential sensitivities.  It seems to be such a gut irritant that a dog can actually develop NEW allergies while simultaneously exposed to SBM.
      • And the biggest issue to a practical person is that again, you are paying for a bag of corn, supplemented with soy bean meal to increase the protein.  Soybean meal has almost as much protein by weight as meat meal, and in this list it's right after the chicken by product meal.
    • Animal Fat
      • A scary ingredient - you really don't want to know.  Let's just say the rule about NAMED meat sources applies here as well.
      • Storage is a big problem for this product.  It's already rendered, usually, meaning it's been cooked and generally is collected from processing facilities that aren't, um, really that interested in keeping it clean and safe.  There's not enough fake OR "natural" preservatives in the world to make this stuff safe, honestly.




    • Gold Top Dog

    Becca, this information is absolutely wonderful...thank you sooo much!!!

    You have no idea how long I've been trying to get them to stop feeding this stuff to their dog.  And if you happen to know what brand this is, well, they're paying quite a premium for their big bag of corn.  Actually, I have no problem telling the brand...Science Diet Large Breed Adult.

    They think that his yeasty ear is just because "he's a lab and they get them all the time and he loves to swim."  Well, Harry's a lab, too (well, mixed, but still) and every single time he's been to the vet they rave about his clean ears (and pearly white teeth, to throw that in there cuz I'm a proud momma).  And guess what?  He loves to swim, too.

    Not that I'm ruling out the water or other factors here contributing to the yeast, but my brother's gf was just telling me how much money they've spent (over $450) in the last 6 weeks to treat this ear infection, with no good results.  If I could convince them to at least *attempt* a food switch to see if it helps, they may be game for that.

    I just need to now figure out how to give them this info without making them upset with me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Actually...just found out they switched him off this food late last fall.  He's now on Iams.  Here is the list for that one, some of the ingredients are the same, but this is a little better.

    Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Glucosamine), Ground Whole Grain Barley, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Fish Meal, Chicken Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Flax Meal, Caramel, Choline Chloride, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Dried Chicken Cartilage (Natural source of Glucosamine), Calcium Carbonate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, Rosemary Extract.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I highly recommend you direct them to The Dog Food Project to look up the ingredients and get some information on how food can contribute to problems like icky ears and itchiness. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    lisa4kids1pup
     She had her anal glands removed a few years back.

     

    So did my pug and she still scoots all the time.  The Vet said "habit" or just "itchy butt".  Since mine is a pug she has trouble scratching back there like most.