Sieger shows/GSD conformation vs. work/obedience test...

I really do appreciate you letting me into your world. I realized, too, just a few moments ago, that I'm used to dealing with a different temperment. Shadow is true to his temperment. Shy and aloof until he knows you better. Great bite inhibition. Once he knows you, he wants to rear up and give you a husky hug. Independent. He has to have a reason to do something. At the same time, once your in with him, you are in. He was scary to the plumbers here yesterday but they didn't realize that him staying in a sit, even while he barked, was a sign of control on his part. So, I had to put him in the bedroom for the duration. As a puppy, his previous owners would wrestle with him. So even hard physical contact feels like play to him. When I first got him and tried corrections and even what some consider harsh punishment, namely the scruff and pin or alpha roll, it would look at me with a sloppy grin and roll himself. As soon as I released, back at it, he was. Because it was a reinforcer. This reminds now, somewhat, of the bite training you are doing, now.  Especially stick work, which is a misnomer, as the stick is danger of being broken if you sneeze on it. I agree, as you said, it is more of a tool to get the dog to not break concentration because of defensive actions on the part of the target, more than it is a desire to make the dog impervious to pain. Obviously, if the dog was getting hurt by say, a suspect, I would rather out and recall the dog and then just shoot the suspect and solve that problem. A good dog is more valuable to me than a burglar. My bad. Anyway, I'm not judging, even if it sounded that way and you have helped and inspired me a lot to understand and appreciate this sport.

Sibes are known as lousy guard dogs. Give them a steak and they will watch the thieves clean out your house. As a breed, they were, for the longest time, not bred for guard dog obedience. They were bred to do a few things. Be good with humans, acting like pillows for the children, and pull hard and run fast on very little food in the coldest environment on Earth. So, that's a different mindset altogether.

As I pointed out in a thread in the breed sections, my first encounter with a GSD was a good one. I was about 4 years old, maybe 5, walking with my grandma down a street in Simi Valley, CA, which was a long time ago. A man was in his front yard with his GSD. The dog came up near me and I was scared. He commanded his dog and she obeyed unflinchingly, without hesitation. I liked GSDs for the longest time after. And still do.

I've read a few other sources on SCH training and it appears there are almost two schools of thought. One is to forestall the bite and stick training until later. And, the other, such as yours, which gets them right into it. I suppose that also helps in determinging temperment and drive at an early age. As some guys I know around here talk about Labs, "Yeah, but will the dog hunt?" Some dogs are not all that interested in chasing anything bigger than a cat. One time, when Shadow was about 1 year and a few months, over at a friend's house, he went through the fence into a ranch and encountered two black Angus cows. And immediately skedaddled through fence back to us. So, there are temperment requirements for any job, it would seem.

Again, thanks for helping to educate me on this adventure. I may not get into Schutzhund but I still think it's fascinating.

miranadobe

I've watched my trainer raise two Doberman pups and one GSD pups for SchH and it is a completely different story than raising a pet.  Obedience is incorporated at a different rate and with different emphasis than a pet, but it's still incorporated within the first year.  However, "off" and "out" just aren't introduced when most of us would expect for a pet puppy.

Exactly.  It's not that nothing is done it's just....different.  The "out" is so crucial you don't want to do it wrong, so it's better sometimes to just wait.  A lot of people will train an out/give/drop b/c their puppy is chewing or picking up things he shouldn't be.  In our house it's simple - nothing is accessible to the puppy unless it's something he can have, so I don't have a reason to ask him to release anything for me.  When tugging they will usually drop the toy once it's "dead" and motionless.  The training toys and rags are kept away so he cannot be chewing on them or dragging them around.

We intend to compete but not be competitive, if that makes sense. Most SchH3 titled dogs are nowhere near the caliber of what you would see at World Championships or any top SchH competition.  There are few show line dogs that can really hold a candle to top working line dogs, and I say that as a person with a show dog (and a working line dog who STILL can't hold a candle).  I do not expect to be getting 100s and making national teams.  He will hopefully be trained, trialed, and titled to a level that matches his parents but that doesn't mean he's an exceptional working dog.

Ron I don't know any SchH people that will wait with initial bite work.  Getting a dog for SchH and not doing any prey drive exercising, tugging, etc is really asking for trouble and kind of defeats the purpose of getting a puppy do to SchH with.  Puppies are not biting sleeves, if that's what you mean.  I do know a SchH person who has a 5 month old that is already on a sleeve but that's impressive.  At this age they are doing ragwork, tugging, chasing balls on strings, flirt poles.  That's their "bite" work right now.

My trained got two new GSD pups at about 8 weeks and they were started immediately in both tracking and drive work.  She also took them to puppy classes for socialization.  Drive work consisted of rags, flirt poles, and various types of tug toys.  Her male, who is absolutely HUGE now and probably about 7-8months right now, was actually biting a sleeve when he was 4 months (granted, he was already much bigger than Rafe and it was a puppy sleeve, but that was definitely not common).  

 As far as being a family dog....Rafe would be just fine, I think.  It is all a game, like Liesje said.  I think it would have to be a very scary situation before he would actually bite someone without a sleeve.  As far as bitework, he's ready for a Schutzhund I trial, but I still have to work on some tracking (he hates tracking...lol!) and polish his obedience more.  I would trust him with my family without a doubt.  He's fine around kids (think three crazy kids, 5, 6, and 8, running around in the house screaming) and loves everyone he meets.  I think he definitely won over the judge with his attitude!  Don't get the wrong impression with these dogs.  Biting is not on their mind 24-7.  ;)  My trainers Czech-line dog, however, would be another story.  She is great with her family, and she is fine with her son (who is probably 6-7ish now).  She'd protect that boy with her life.  She's a much sharper dog than any of the others in our group, and she actually HAS bitten someone before (a lady was running past the boy's stroller when he was younger, and she thought the lady was a threat, therefore bit her when she ran by.  What I don't understand was why someone would run by that close to a dog 'guarding' a strolling.  She didn't move from her down stay, just lifted up to bite the lady's hand, then immediately went back down).  THAT particular dog would not do well in certain situations, but her owner knows it so she doesn't put her in situations that might put anyone else in danger. 

 I <3 Schutzhund...lol!

Liesje

In our house it's simple - nothing is accessible to the puppy unless it's something he can have, so I don't have a reason to ask him to release anything for me.  When tugging they will usually drop the toy once it's "dead" and motionless.  The training toys and rags are kept away so he cannot be chewing on them or dragging them around.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense but the point is subtle. If I may so bold as to re-phrase in language so simple even an electrician could understand it, you control the "game." So, only when the toys are out and you are engaged does he do the bite and prey drive and the other 9 yards. In effect, you are creating the on/off switch so that if the toys are not out and in your hand to train, he is off and follows the basic obedience. And since you control the toys and the commands, as you said, contextually specific, the corollary of dogs don't necessarily generalize as we would expect or think, means that the dog won't interpret a child's imitation dance of MC Hammer as an invitation to latch on and earn SCH 3, in so many words.

Liesje

We intend to compete but not be competitive, if that makes sense

I totally understand. If I ever get into weight or cart pulling (we don't get enough snow to even think about getting a sled) it would primarly be for our enjoyment and not for any brass ring. Plus, believe it or not, dog sledding is not a huge sport in Texas. In fact, we humans down here have "sweating our butts off" down to a fine art. The secret to that is drink lots of water, but I digress. We do get cold days. The cold fronts run down the eastern side of the Great Divide and pick up speed as they descend and living on the Southern Plains means the wind never stops.

Liesje

He will hopefully be trained, trialed, and titled to a level that matches his parents but that doesn't mean he's an exceptional working dog.

I beg to differ. Now that I understand better your training and goals, I think he'll make a fine working dog that is satisfied with his job and tired, satisfied dogs are couch potatos and foot warmers around the house. Working as much as you need.

 This is a very interesting thread. I've been doing the same, exact thing with my conformation puppy. Ena is 10 months old, and she knows basic obedience, but she hasn't been pushed, at all. She is allowed, and even encouraged, to act in ways that would be considered inappropriate in most pet homes. I'm encouraging a lot of confidence, and while she's socialized and allowed to be a dog, I don't allow big corrections from other dogs, because I don't ever, ever want her to show timidity around dogs. She needs to be bold in the show ring, and my gosh, she has been.

FWIW, I do things similarly with Emma, who is an obedience dog. She is encouraged to be pushy. When we play tug, she leaps up at the toy and snaps at me (never making contact). It gets her "up" enough to really work hard. I'm using the same drives that you're using, in a different way. 

I, too, allowed Shadow to do things considered bad for most dogs. I revelled in his ability to  pull like a freight train. Granted, I control it with mushing commands, but I think it's good to let the dog do what they are good at. I can walk him in heel, stop, start, steer right, steer left. And he heeds the commands. And still gets to pull when he wants to. As well as informal tracking.