Amount of iron in EVO

I was going to bow out of this debate because, in spite of your judgement of my view of the research, a few questions haven't been answered.

But you linked that law student's paper. It reads, at times, as if it were lifted from the pages of some self-defined nutrition gurus of a few years back, full of distrust for the pet food industry, the AAFCO, in fact anyone outside of their own little view. But I tried to read past the unfounded statements and musings disguised as failings of the some of these institutions. "How can this org do anything, etc., etc."

But let me quote some keepers.

"A wild animal instinctively knows when they’re lacking a certain nutrient and will seek out foods containing the deficient nutrient."

I nearly spewed my soda. Funny, L. David Mech never noticed that behavior. "Honey, run down to the store and get me some vitamin D." A friend of mine who has rehabbed wolves and seen them come into the compound dehydrated and malnourished might also beg to differ.

"Ever noticed that the veterinarians office is often, if not always, filled with commercial pet food? The more the veterinarians sell their food to “clients”, the higher their commissions on the sales through incentive programs."

So, why is that my vet, who sells some Purina special formulas like NF for failing kidneys, etc.,is driving a 14 year old truck in need of a paint job? Anyway, we determined a long time ago that the notion that vets were bankrolled by the pet food industry was a fictional straw boss. An oldie but a goodie. I'll tell you who makes the money. The dentist.

Anyway, I don't think the case of deep corruption was helped by this paper. But that's just a side issue. Although, he did describe a slanted view of a real process. The NRC does come up with guidelines of nutrients in 100 % pure amounts, which is not how most food products are made. Most food products are made from component or whole ingredients of animal and vegetable matter. Even you mentioned that the iron supplement is often bound to a protein. If so, and a dog were allergic to that protein (which is what a food allergy usually is, an allergy to a specific protein or amino acid) then would that bound iron be undigestible and does it decay enough in its bonded state to break free and become a free iron? Also, in bioavailability, how much iron is actually getting absorbed? And is the 80 mg/kg guideline a pre-process requirement since the ingredient list itself is a pre-process list. Or, IOW, if the food companies are lying, then there isn't a whole 80 mg/kg in a finished product. That is, why would they cheat and lie about the animal protein but tell the truth about iron supplement. Having cake and eating it, too...

"I'm just a blonde, living in captivity ..."

This doesn't make sense to me.  So, if you are feeding Evo your dog might be getting more than the recommended amount of iron per day?  So, couldn't the same thing happen if you fed a different food but gave a multi vitamin? 

willowchow

So, couldn't the same thing happen if you fed a different food but gave a multi vitamin? 

Conceivably, yes. I think, it depends on how the iron is presented, how your dog handles it. Plus the fact that, in real life, no one component compound is 100 % bioavailable. For example, the infamous "filler" quality of the evil kibble is because ingredients like corn are 90 percent digestible, leaving 10 percent to just move on through as roughage. The AAFCO recognizes this and adjusts the figures they get from the NRC to reflect amounts present in real world ingredients. But let's say that your dog absorbs iron easily, thanks to some genetic predisposition to do so. Then, your dog could easily be suspecptible to iron poisoning.

If a raw chicken quarter had a certain amount of iron present and your dog ate 4 quarters does that mean that your dog's blood analysis would show 4 times the iron dose of one quarter? Not necessarily, in my opinion. But really,we would have to ask an animal nutrition expert, usually a vet with expertise in small animal nutrition. Otherwise, asking an electrician is probably about as futile as asking a lawyer.

fish n dog

It's a long article but very insightful

Indeed, it is. Thanks for sharing.

willowchow

This doesn't make sense to me.  So, if you are feeding Evo your dog might be getting more than the recommended amount of iron per day?  So, couldn't the same thing happen if you fed a different food but gave a multi vitamin?

I'll summarize, Anne. 

1. Dog food companies use guidelines developed by AAFCO, based on NRC guidelines from 1981.  Among other things, these guidelines don't recognize several amino acids as essential, nor any need for essential fatty acids.
2. NRC has updated their guidelines.  Among other updates - a more complete profile of essential amino acids reflecting research up to 2002, recommendations for OFA levels, and a recognition that in "natural diets" dogs symthesize vitamin K, making supplementation with menadione unnecessary.
3. Most important update:  they changed the way nutrients are calculated for the weight of your dog.  Before (and what AAFCO stil recommends) it was a one-to one thing - so much whatever per pounds of dog.  Now, it's like a sliding scale - as your dog gets bigger, the recommended levels for a nutrient get less.
4. All commercial foods that use the AAFCO guidelines are at risk.  Some are worse than others because they are all life stages, have more mineral content (like the EVO), or just made decisions regarding various minerals that will affect bigger dogs and bigger eaters.

If you don't feed a very large dog, and don't feed her huge amounts of food, or feed a specialized food, it's unlikely there's any issue.  But it's easy to find out for yourself, or I can help you out if you want.

To answer your question directly though, dog multivitamins tend to avoid supplying much iron because it is so easy to oversupply.  Ditto with zinc and copper. 

Ron, you've floored me.  All I can say is, I didn't post the article because I thought the writer was himself an expert, but for all the citations.  Follow the links to this guy's primary sources, read them, and draw your own conclusions.  The citations are all the clicky numbers after almost every statement he makes in the document.

Thanks, Becca.  I'm thinking Willow being a small eater and only 50 lbs she's not at much risk--which is good, she's got enough issues. 

Also, LOL--willowchow=Lori, spiritdogs=Anne

Also, LOL--willowchow=Lori, spiritdogs=Anne

Ack.  Too many irons in the fire -itis.  The mama sheep who are supposed to be seperated from their lambs got back with their lambs this morning and we had to sort it out before my 9:00 am doctor's appointment!  Sorry about that - shouldn't have been writing when the brain was somewhere else. 

Oh, it's no big deal, I was only kidding with you. 

I'm somewhat sensitive to that because I go "ouch" when someone calls me "Brook".  If I could get rid of the darn screen name without losing my brownie points I would - we haven't lived at Brook Cove Farm in almost three years now!

I do think Willow would be fine with anything formulated for normal dogs.  Monica Segal says even three times the recommended amount of iron is not good but there was no citation for that statement.  I could ask on K9kitchen I guess.  I get that but I never read it any more.  I should start again.  :)