Natural Balance??

Yup, Gingerbread eats only about 1 cup of food a day (with some canned mixed in). [] Plus, the protein percentage is 22% whether you feed 1 cup or 10 cups. So I'm confused about how eating more would increase the protein? I could just be having a blonde moment, so anyone feel free to explain it to me! lol []

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

i reject these foods out of hand because meat isn't listed first-- I would reject any food for that reason, no matter what the quality of the remaining ingredients and the rep of the company was. The venison and rice is mostly rice; the potatoes and duck is mostly potato. I can see feeding them to an allergy dog if you also supplement with duck or venison meats (canned, raw, whatever).

Dry matter basis: a raw diet is around 40% to 50%,  similar to EVO and all of the other "high" protein grain-free kibbles. Most kibbles are ridiculously low in protein, especially when you consider that much of the protein in that "22%" is poor-quality incomplete protein from grains or vegetables. You can bet that a kibble that lists a non-meat item first on the label, and says "22% protein" is, in the dog, closer to "15% usable protein".

I think your "facts"  are a bit off. Here is the ingredient list for NB  Venison and Rice 

Venison, Venison Meal, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Rice Bran, Peas, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Taurine, Natural Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B).

Yup, Gingerbread eats only about 1 cup of food a day (with some canned mixed in). Plus, the protein percentage is 22% whether you feed 1 cup or 10 cups. So I'm confused about how eating more would increase the protein? I could just be having a blonde moment, so anyone feel free to explain it to me! lol

 
  I think you're right; it's 22% no matter how much you feed. The way to increase the amount of protein would be to mix in a higher protein food such as EVO, some meat, or some canned food.

I believe that the venison is their highest protein kibble and was going to post that the first ingredient was not rice nor the second so thanks for that
Bugsy is a young, muscly large dog (95lbs) who just does better with more protein.  Its like he's constantly hungry on kibble alone and less energetic (sometimes that might be a good thing).  And the lower the protein in the kibble the more hungry he is.  What is working best for us is using the NB food nad adding protein(meat or fish) to it.  On the days I do not add protein he will let you know that he is hungry, his behavior can get edgy, and he doesn't have as much life to him.
He has been very lucky today and had extra meat & fish and he is noticable calmer.
Just like for humans I think different dogs do well on different diets - my husband needs more protein,  I need more carbs.  bugsy needs PROTEIN!

ORIGINAL: kpwlee

On the days I do not add protein he will let you know that he is hungry, his behavior can get edgy, and he doesn't have as much life to him.
He has been very lucky today and had extra meat & fish and he is noticable calmer.
Just like for humans I think different dogs do well on different diets - my husband needs more protein,  I need more carbs.  bugsy needs PROTEIN!

Hmmm, I'm hypoglycemic and that's how I get when I need to eat- lethargic and irritable. I know that protein helps my blood sugar stay stable longer... sounds like he has something similar and it's good that you know what works for him!

I love Natural Balance. Ben is a very high energy dog and does fine on the "low" protein of the duck and potato. It does only make up about half his diet but I see little difference between how he does on the NB Duck versus, say, EVO RM which is the other kibble he can eat right now. I adjust the NB portions up to provide the same amount of energy as the EVO, of course, but it's an interesting fact that he produces very little additional waste in spite of that.

On the other hand, for some reason he does poorly on sweet potatoes and so the NB Fish and Sweet Potato was sadly a no-go.

I think many of the "rules" for selecting a better food should be thought of more as guidelines for the average person that doesn't spend a lot of time on nutrition forums.  You can't necessarily tell which food has more meat in it, if one has potatoes, duck meal, duck, canola oil, or one has chicken meal, brown rice, white rice and sunflower oil, and most of the foods are 40-50 percent carbs anyway. I always thought that if your feeding goal and belief  is to feed a lot of high quality meat, than kibble is probably not going to be the best way of doing that anyhow.

that's certainly true abbysdad. Especially with foods that list say, chicken, first then list five different carb sources plus some corn gluten- you have no idea how much meat is in there.  
 
I stand corrected on the NB venison and rice. I must have been looking at a different brand of venison and rice in the store.

i reject these foods out of hand because meat isn't listed first-- I would reject any food for that reason, no matter what the quality of the remaining ingredients and the rep of the company was. The venison and rice is mostly rice; the potatoes and duck is mostly potato. I can see feeding them to an allergy dog if you also supplement with duck or venison meats (canned, raw, whatever).

 
mudpuppy, thanks for this response. This is what I was thinking too but people rave about NB and I thought maybe I was missing something.

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

Yup, Gingerbread eats only about 1 cup of food a day (with some canned mixed in). Plus, the protein percentage is 22% whether you feed 1 cup or 10 cups. So I'm confused about how eating more would increase the protein? I could just be having a blonde moment, so anyone feel free to explain it to me! lol

I think you're right; it's 22% no matter how much you feed. The way to increase the amount of protein would be to mix in a higher protein food such as EVO, some meat, or some canned food.

If you are talking a precentage of protein like 22% of the food is protein and if you feed 4 ounces of the food that would be that you would have 0.88 ounces of protein in a 4 oz serving.  If the food was 26% protein then a 4  ounce serving would be 1.04 oz..  The difference in a 1 cup serving then would be  0.16 ounces of protein  ( that is 16 hundreths of an ounce or you split an ounce in 100 equal parts and it is 16 of that 100 )  To get from .88 ounces of protein to 1.04 ounces, a shade over a half ounce would do it. 

ORIGINAL: bunni

i reject these foods out of hand because meat isn't listed first-- I would reject any food for that reason, no matter what the quality of the remaining ingredients and the rep of the company was. The venison and rice is mostly rice; the potatoes and duck is mostly potato. I can see feeding them to an allergy dog if you also supplement with duck or venison meats (canned, raw, whatever).


mudpuppy, thanks for this response. This is what I was thinking too but people rave about NB and I thought maybe I was missing something.

Guess you didn't read my post above, but regarding the NB Venison and Rice, I listed the ingredients and Venison is the first ingredient.

If you are talking a precentage of protein like 22% of the food is protein and if you feed 4 ounces of the food that would be that you would have 0.88 ounces of protein in a 4 oz serving. If the food was 26% protein then a 4 ounce serving would be 1.04 oz.. The difference in a 1 cup serving then would be 0.16 ounces of protein ( that is 16 hundreths of an ounce or you split an ounce in 100 equal parts and it is 16 of that 100 ) To get from .88 ounces of protein to 1.04 ounces, a shade over a half ounce would do it.

You and DH would get along well; his major in college was physics and his minor was math, which he's great at. As for me, I have no idea what you're talking about [8D], but I'll take your word for it.[] Jessie is allergic to chicken so I can't feed her the higher protein-lower fat senior foods that Eagle Pack and some other companies make, so I add the things I mentioned before to her kibble, adjusting the amount of kibble for the calories. One important thing to remember when you're adding meat is to add about 250 mg. of calcium for every 3 and a half ounces of meat to maintain the calcium -phosphorus balance.

Jessie's mom I'm so glad you said that! I was sitting here reading that post over and over, feeling completely confused and like I should have a dunce hat on! [] Math is not my friend. lol

Please help me figure this out!  [&:]  It's soooo confusing.
 
OK, so from others post, I have figured out that my canned meat only of 10% is really 45% protein after taking away for moisture content and doing the math.
 
Soooooooo, If I feed homecooked veggies and grain, each comprising 40% of the meal --for a total of 80% -- that would then leave the meat only portion at 20% of the meal.
 
So, if that meat portion is canned and is 45% meat, that would make it appear to be only 9% protein.
 
BUT, the way I've been looking at it is this way:  If all the food in the bowl is "wet" (no kibble), then the veggies still have water content in them, and the grain will have more water content since it is re-hydrated.  So, I think the protein is still at 20% of the meal since non is dehydrated kibble food.
 
I'm confused as to how much protein exactly I am feeding.
 
AND, AND, this next summer I want to switch to homecooked meats, and not use canned meat.  So, I guess that means the percentages will be different from the above calculations?
 
I think I need a semester of training in understanding this.  But, since I'm on a food elimination diet, and will unlikely be able to feed kibble on a regular basis in the future, I guess I need to understand this stuff.
 
Thanks!!
 
Lynn