To anyone who thinks SchH is only for people with a tough guy complex....

spiritdogs

 And.....it isn't only for tough dogs either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxDYUkbIv7M

Love it. I train my beagle in drive too, although we only compete in obedience not Schutzhund. 

I do BH work with my poodles, and use very similar motivational techniques for heeling that Sch people do. I get similar attention and focus that Sch folk do too. In obedience we may not have touches at all. You know you have cracked it when your dog starts to offer attention heeling all over the place :) i have shown Luci off at an Sch seminar. Here the heeling routines are long (> 2 minutes) and if you don't get that focus it is a little hard to get through.

Building the motivation is the trick with my dogs. When that happens the rest comes easily. 

I plan on getting a recognised Sch breed for my next dog. I need a guard dog to look after my other dogs, and since i have one than i will just have to work it :)

I love seeing other breeds in SchH!  Just be aware though that a dog is not a "SchH dog" unless it trains in all three phases.  There is a LOT of stuff that carries over mentally for the dog, the training is not really complete if the dog only does one or two phases (like my Kenya who only does obedience and tracking).  The conflicts and pressures the dog works through in the other two phases always effect their work and performance in obedience, which to me is what makes the SchH obedience so cool (because you guys are right, anyone can train any breed to prance around for 10 minutes).

It is also primarily a breed test for the GSD.  The routines are not simply about precision and doing every exercise with focus.  I have seen dogs forge and crowd but score in the mid to high 90s because they show the correct temperament and drive for the sport.  The dog must show power in obedience and have a "pushiness" about it.  The judge is not going to care if my dog is touching me or if he's not prancing around with his head cranked up if he's showing power, drive, and control all at the same time.  There are plenty of other venues that require the more precise positioning with eye contact.  In SchH you will see dogs score 100 points with obvious mistakes in their routines but the exercises are not really what is being scored.

Liesje

There is a LOT of stuff that carries over mentally for the dog, the training is not really complete if the dog only does one or two phases (like my Kenya who only does obedience and tracking).  The conflicts and pressures the dog works through in the other two phases always effect their work and performance in obedience, which to me is what makes the SchH obedience so cool (because you guys are right, anyone can train any breed to prance around for 10 minutes).

Yes, you bet. But my dog despite appearances can cope with a similar scenario . It teaches me and i own her and admire her that we have to look at what the dog does not what the dog looks like. My dog can do a 1200M track over crap ground, do an agility course at the ADX level and then do a UD round in sometimes bad weather and be that pushy dog that you are talking  about. She suprises the hell out of me! But having said that , she has a couple of flaws that mean that she should NOT be considered for some critical roles . My boy is potentially even better. I sometimes wonder wether the bias we apply "my dog is a poodle " or "my dog is a GSD" affects our expectations in a negative way. 

The differences in tracking between what i do and what Shutzhund requires is quite large. I want and train dogs that close trial rather than footstep track. My acid test is to quote one of our more senior judges here "I want a dog that if it ever gets itself in the crap, can work out how to get itself back out" .I n tough terrain this is a must. It takes a lot of training to get my breed to reliably and comfortably footstep track as they really aren't built for it (high sensitivity but quite low saturation levels) yet they can be wonderful dogs in VST type scenarios. I have though trained Luci to footstep track on cue. She has a nice cadence and is very focused. Shutzhund tracking is a wonderful test of dirve focus and commitment.

My next dog will most likely be a working line GSD 

poodleOwned

My boy is potentially even better. I sometimes wonder wether the bias we apply "my dog is a poodle " or "my dog is a GSD" affects our expectations in a negative way.

Definitely.  Just because a dog is a GSD does not necessarily give it any advantage either, and a lot of people assume it does, or just assume their dog is sound and correct because it's a nice pet or the breeder said so.  Schutzhund was specifically designed to test GSDs which is why no dog breed can do it better, but that certainly doesn't mean every GSD will excel or can be expected to.  It is a breed test developed for the breed, so that alone assumes that there are things needing to be tested.  Not all GSDs make the cut and if they did, there'd be something wrong with the test.  It is not like other dog sports where we *want* every dog to be able to succeed.  For example, we cannot adjust the jump height (1meter) or the dumbbell weight (5lbs for SchH3) to accommodate smaller dogs. Other breeds and smaller dogs are always going to be at a disadvantage because they are being judged against the standard of the best German Shepherd dogs.  A smaller dog can be trained to do the exercise correctly but physically cannot show the same power and fight.

For breed and SchH enthusiasts like myself, the training is the most important thing, not the trial performance or exercises themselves.  I choose my training methods NOT based on which ones I think will get points the fastest/easiest but which ones will really play to my dog's weaknesses as well as his strengths.  If I wanted a higher protection score, I'd teach my dog to out on his own and then silent guard, but instead I want him to fight and hang on until *I* say to out and then immediately active guard with power and control.  There is a lot that I want exposed during training.  The trial and title is more just the icing on the cake, the "nod" that you have spent years and thousands of dollars and countless hours developing that understanding of how your dog works.  This is why I am a firm believer that do to "Schutzhund" means you work your dog with equal importance placed on all three phases (and actually the passing score for protection is higher than the other three phases and tie breakers depend on the protection score).  Not all dogs can do all three or should do all three, but those are not "Schutzhund dogs".  If all I did with Nikon was obedience or obedience and tracking we'd already have a SchH3 by now.

Liesje

For example, we cannot adjust the jump height (1meter) or the dumbbell weight (5lbs for SchH3) to accommodate smaller dogs. Other breeds and smaller dogs are always going to be at a disadvantage because they are being judged against the standard of the best German Shepherd dogs.  A smaller dog can be trained to do the exercise correctly but physically cannot show the same power and fight.

Actually.. both my dogs clear 1M easily, much more readly than many show line GSDs (DONT get me started....). The 5ib dumb bell is a no go though !!! but i think Sam could do it, not Luci. Luci has done Best in Ring against GSDs in Obedience several times and has beaten them in tracking both time wise and grade wise often. I actually find this sad. I don't want my poodle beating GSDs in tracking . It means that either the dogs are wrong or the training is wrong. I know the sense of this may not come out right but i hope that it does.

When i train, i say two things, today is a good day to fix any issues you have, not tomorrow or next week.

The journey is more important than the outcome. If the dog and you aren't enjoying it , then something is wrong. Yes sure there are tough bits. Going through wet long grass is not fun for Luci or Sam but they know that there is light at the end of the tunnel and they do it.

 I guess that i am putting my money where my mouth is with my next dog. :)

LOL the 1m jump is always an annoyance of mine because so many SchH people just assume that because their dog is large, it will jump!  Most recently I was at a regional event and more SchH3 dogs touched the jump than not!  Grrrr.  I'm glad I do agility as well.  I've been helping my club members train the jumping.  They want to string up the dog on a leash and run it over the jump with a toy thrown several yards away from the jump.  Gah!  I spend several months working on Nikon's jump technique (with a single jump, indoors, NO running just jumping over from a dead sit).  Part of it is because he does have a skeletal problem that could lead to back problems, so I am very particular about him jumping correctly and safely.  He's the most consistent club dog not touching the 1m jump and hasn't knocked any bars during his agility trials.

Liesje

LOL the 1m jump is always an annoyance of mine because so many SchH people just assume that because their dog is large, it will jump!  Most recently I was at a regional event and more SchH3 dogs touched the jump than not!  Grrrr.  I'm glad I do agility as well.  I've been helping my club members train the jumping.

OMG i hate jumping many gun dog breeds particualy Labs. Many just don't have the spring in the rear,have no idea that they have a rear, and it is so hard to build up muscle in the rear with them. It takes super doses of patience, and slow steady work, and even then many have structural problems that let them down.

Jumping from a dead sit is great , it ensures that the dog actually uses front and back. 

 For FEMA DSD testing, dogs have to be able to jump 1M. I think that i would be able to get the very best Labs over, quite mediocre GSDs, nearly all poodles.... (Yes i have seen an athletic toy clear a meter!!!)

What's sad is that SchH used to have all these athletic/agility tests, like long jumps, higher jumps, scaling vertical walls (not the a-frame we have now...lots of things you see now in a police K9 Olympics obstacle course.  I think this aspect of the dog's physical conformation and agility is now ignored by the sport, like we just assume a dog can do these tasks based on their size and the stamina required for the rest of the exercises.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM

@ 1:30 there's jumping
@ 2:15 there's the scaling wall

I did some UKC Dog Sport with my older dog (it has obedience and protection but it is more PSA type protection, more defense than prey and more "real world" application for both the ob and protection) and they have a jump series that has various higher jumps and walls.  You can run with the dog or sit the dog on one and and then call from the other.  At the particular trial we were in, the field was in several inches of water and many of the dogs refused the jumps b/c of having to land and take off in standing water.