Limited/unlimited registration and showing

rwbeagles

There are people in my breed who pretty much place Full  with no strings and their lines are often found behind BYB's at some point.

 My guess would be that is more of an issue of their how they are screening (or not) than it is of placing the dog on limited or full registration. I would guess those dogs would probably have been bred regardless of limited or full registration - most of the pet buying public these days just don't care if the dog is AKC registered or not and one can easily just register litters with CKC or APRI if they want "papers". The only thing that changes is that you don't see them on poorly bred dog's AKC pedigrees.

 My experience with selling puppies in my breed is that most pet homes have them spayed and neutered long before I want them to. I try to encourage them to allow the puppy to grow up before altering but most are done by about 6 months old.

 Very different breeds but I would actually like to see more quality males placed in good pet homes be given full registration, if the owner is willing to keep them intact. It would be nice to have the option to use them if they turn out, even if they aren't shown. We don't have a lot of boys being kept by breeders or placed with show homes and are a smaller number breed. In some ways limited registration can do harm to the breed's population:

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/articles/a_gathering_storm_pt_2.html

I think the idea is a good one...but honestly? Beagles are so incredibly popular, numerous, and diverse...esp considering the amt of dogs kept almost completely genetically isolated via the hunting community...that it doesn't really overbalance the amt of hounds being bred irresponsibly...IOW it would not make sense for our breed.

Now Leo's? they definitely are in danger from the s/n craze...as I imagine many of the genetically less diverse, health problem plagued, and less popular breeds, are also. They apparently have a big problem with matador sires and such...Akitas did too, and still do from what I've seen.

rwbeagles

Agile, I think it'd be worth pursuing quietly. I mean she was basically FORCED into this. She CAN lift the Limited right now as I read it...if there is no LEGALLY BINDING contract stating she cannot between her and Difficult.

 Thanks for that info - I will certainly pass it on! There is no legally binding contract stating that the puppies from this dog can only be registered on limited. Really there is no contract that addresses the co-own or the breeding of the dog at all. She has plenty of saved emails between her and Difficult pertaining to the planning of this litter, none of which mention that the puppies will have to be on limited. And she has the email she sent when Difficult informed her that she was only signing the papers if all puppies were on limited. By that time the puppies were probably 3 months old and Difficult was being....difficult and had already refused to sign the papers several times. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she will be able to lift the limited on them, as she'd really like to show them. It seemed really wrong to me that a co-breeder can force the other co-breeder to register puppies they kept from the breeding on limited.

rwbeagles

ah I see, I was confused because the phrasing sounded like you were referring to owning the dog, which has nothing to do with registration type..own vs co own...was what I was thinking. sorry for misunderstanding

I need to own the dog in full because of how I feel about dog ownership, and have full AKC registration (not because I intend to breed, but I need that for conformation and for the other performance events).  The contract with the breeder limits breeding my intact male, even though I fully own the dog and have full registration (if I wanted to use him as a stud there are requirements that need to be met and other terms that give the breeder more control as far as the breeding aspect).  Of course, I could break the contract, but it's really no different than co-owning a dog with limited registration and still going against the contract and breeding it.  Unfortunately I don't think there's any surefire 100% guaranteed way for a breeder to protect their interests and the dog.

I have no interest in co-owning dogs, seen it gone awry too many times, and can't foresee myself ever being willing to co-own a dog.  If the dog is living under my roof, being fed, vetted, trained, shown, and titled by me, then he is mine.  I've seen some co-owns attempted when the breeder wanted to keep a dog in the program and the co-owner couldn't afford the full price of the dog.  Personally, if I can't afford the dog and everything that goes with it (training, titling, health certs, etc) then I would save more money and wait to get one.

The relationship I have with my breeder is sort of like a co-own except not.  I own my dogs, but she has first right of refusal (and that includes if *I* die and DH doesn't, she still gets her dogs back) and our agreement involves her as far as breedings (as I described above).  We do everything together - training, showing, competition.  But my dogs are mine, her dogs are hers.  I don't mind borrowing puppies and helping with doing some imprinting for training, but I don't co-own them, they are her dogs (which means I can give them back when I get sick of them, hehe).  I've just seen so many "falling outs" that I couldn't bear to lose a friend AND my dogs.

AgileGSD

It seemed really wrong to me that a co-breeder can force the other co-breeder to register puppies they kept from the breeding on limited.

Good instinct...because it IS! In fact if you read on in that section where what I posted is...it states that anyone who is trying to block a registration on an otherwise eligible dog...is subject to SUSPENSION. So perhaps she needs to send that to Difficult to allow her to put it into her pipe...and smoke it. LOL.

rwbeagles

I think the idea is a good one...but honestly? Beagles are so incredibly popular, numerous, and diverse...esp considering the amt of dogs kept almost completely genetically isolated via the hunting community...that it doesn't really overbalance the amt of hounds being bred irresponsibly...IOW it would not make sense for our breed.

 I can see how it is certainly different in such a popular breed. And you always have the option to outcross to the hunting lines if a problem comes up, which in itself can really help. And the pet lines even. IOWs Beagle people have a lot of options, if they are ever needed :)

 There is a group of breeders in a toy breed who are using a few dogs from a USDA commercial breeder now. Interestingly, the dogs are of a good quality and at least a few dogs from this breeder have finished. This is the only line left in their breed that doesn't contain a certain popular sire, which has caused a major bottleneck.

yep yep bottlenecking is a well, bitch! Now I can understand when extreme measures have to be taken...they must be taken for sure. It's just a shame that the pretty predictable future is not seen until it becomes the present for many folks...you know?

One of the perhaps often overlooked BENEFITS with these deep divides in "type" or "function" like with the hounds, or Labs, or Setters or some of the herding breeds...is just what you mention. An untapped pool of "others" that can be used to in essence, scrape out some of the junk causing the bottle neck and allow things to flow more smoothly.

rwbeagles

AgileGSD

It seemed really wrong to me that a co-breeder can force the other co-breeder to register puppies they kept from the breeding on limited.

 

Good instinct...because it IS! In fact if you read on in that section where what I posted is...it states that anyone who is trying to block a registration on an otherwise eligible dog...is subject to SUSPENSION. So perhaps she needs to send that to Difficult to allow her to put it into her pipe...and smoke it. LOL.

 Very interesting indeed! I just read through the regulations concerning this and you are right - Difficult was going against AKC's rules here. I would love to see her suspended for this LOL she is a very high and mighty sort. One of those "I've been in this breed for X number of years and what I say goes!" sorts. Thanks for the heads up on this!