Concerns about Prednisone - KOBI

Am at work so can’t say much – but long term -- and it is sometimes used for months – (Billy was on it WITH cyclosporine. But it was five months before they weaned him off the pred even **with** the cyclosporine taking most of the brunt of the immune-suppression) it is hard on several areas:

1. It’s very hard on the kidneys and liver. And remember – once you have kidney *damage* you have irreversible damage. The liver can regenerate. but the potential kidney/liver damage is why I’m always screaming for people to give tons of milk thistle – silymarin is being taken very seriously at this point not only by the AKC and most vets, but human doctors as well. "Marin" is a pharmaceutical version of milk thistle (made by the same company that does Adequan) -- it’s a high quality product but I have some serious reservations about it – helpful YES, but because it is SO processed, you take away the safety that is found in the whole herb in how it is processed by the body. So where it is actually very safe to take high high doses of milk thistle, it isn’t of Marin.

2. Pred is hard on the other organs – specifically one very very common side effect is diabetes. That can quickly lead to blindness, etc. But diabetes in dogs is hard to diagnose so FREQUENT blood tests need to be done. They can be deathly diabetic SO fast it’s not funny (you see this in IMHA dogs a lot)

3. Probably most notably for Kobi – and I referred to this in the earlier threads I think – is that after even just a month on pred, it messes with the viscocity of the cartilage – it breaks it down so altho it is used as an anti-inflammatory to HELP skeletal stuff, it can actually **at the same time** cause a severe breakdown of the cartilage which actually worsens arthritis (that may be latent and you don’t even know the dog HAS arthritis because it can mimic the other symptoms you are trying to elminate).

Glucosamine/chondroitin/Adequan – those are hydrators – they "plump up" the cartilage that is there so it pads better. But we’re talking about how prednisone can mess with the elasticity of the cartilage and it literally begins to disintigrate.

The Knox Nutra Joint isn’t available in Canada – but it’s simply gelatin and calcium and you can mimic that yourself, or there are now other supplements using this theory – but it actually puts the building blocks at the body’s disposal to RE-BUILD cartilage, rather than just make it "plump". You’d have to look and see what unflavored gelatin products you can find and add just a bit of calcium to it.

Pred is also seriously hard on the stomach – so I’d be giving a stomach protectant if it were me. But that’s the best I can do fast. E-mail me if I can help you more.

PS -- how much does he weigh?  Thats' not a max dose -- a max dose of pred is generally their weight in pounds (40 pound dog's max would be 40 mg.)  It IS a higher dose than is normal for palliative care I think, but that's my non-professional take.

 Thanks Callie. I know this isn't the first time I've asked some of these questions and I appreciate that you take the time to reinforce all this information. I do have milk thistle which I could not get Kobi to take when I tried. He is so ravenous now I am sure I can add it to his dinner without a problem. How much should I be adding? It is in liquid form.

I am worried that the pred is messing up his cartilage. Because he has really not shown any other signs of a tumor affecting his other limbs I am concerned that the continued weakening is a result of break down of the cartilage and muscle waisting due to the pred. I am going to try the gelatin and calcium, hopefully I will see some improvement. It is just so frustrating that the pred and the disease are potentially having the same negative effect on his limb. I feel like I'm in a catch 22. 

The limb issue aside, my greatest fear now is the liver and kidneys. Again catch 22. I treat the tumor and Kobi ends up with liver and/or kidney disease. BANG HEAD AGAINST WALL! I'm trying to do what is best for Kobi but I'm not even sure what I am treating or if the treatment is worse than the disease.

I am hoping the neurologist may have some answers next week although I have a sinking feeling he will leave me in the same position.

calliecritturs

how much does he weigh? 

When Kobi was 1st prescribed he weighed 85lbs. I was able to get almost 10 off but I'm sure he's back up there again.

 Thanks again Callie.
 

Milk thistle tincture is nasty cos it's all alcohol

I never have a problem giving pills -- (liverwurst here we come -- or meat baby food).  But the easiest way I've found is simply to buy it bulk -- way cheaper and you just add to his food and stir in.

HOw much?  All you can.  Billy and Tink both take a big half teas. (heaping) of loose milk thistle.  If I was battling the pred -- I'd be giving him 1-2 teaspoons per meal.  (and I mean HEAPING)

http://www.leavesandroots.com -- Caroline is awesome -- her stuff is high quality and will still be cheap after you pay Canadian postage.  I've known her for years and she is a nice lady and carries really quality stuff.

I"m talking about just a big bag of powdered milk thistle (it's about $12.75 US for a w hole POUND -- that's probably 10 or more bottles of capsules).

If you were giving capsules I'd tell you at least half a dozen caps twice a day.  Milk thistle is a protectant - that's what it does best. 

Now -- if the liver values start to slip you can always add Sam-e -- it's pricey and you don't need it til you see toxicity to the liver.  (If you were using the pharmaceutical grade stuff it's Marin that is the pharmaceutical milk thistel and Denosyl that is the Sam-e version that's pharmaceutical). 

I'm gonna email you.

denise m

I have made an appointment with the neurologist next week for Kobi.

 Denise;  I hope the neurologist is able to determine exactly what's wrong with Kobi and that it's not cancer; {{{{{hugs}}}}}

 Denise, just thinking about you and Kobi and wondering if you've seen the neurologist yet.  I hope that you get some good news.  It really does seem encouraging that he has been doing so well for so long on just the Pred.  Please update when you can.   Best wishes for you both.