AIHA or IMHA

LOL @ Lori and Willow's paper plates -- watch out, I created a monster that way. Recently Pirate will eat ONLY off of a paper plate. He's eating much better, but I've been getting up at 5 (ugh! 5!) and walking him, instead of letting BF ''walk'' him when they get up for BF to go to work.

Callie and I get our milk thistle by the pound (well, I've cut back to 1/2 lbs. LOL) from the same store in Central FL - I think she does ship if you spend more than $20. I can't think of the website, Callie will be along, I'm sure.

Johnny, I'm not sure but if that was Willow I'd probably take her in as an emergency.  That could be just a UTI though.  Willow's had a few in the past before this illness and she would squat and squat, just had the feeling but really didn't have to go. 

Hope she's feeling better soon!

FrisbyPI

Willowchow, we're in RI, too, and I would love to learn more about what you've learned about with the rabies vac. laws here (e.g. will a titer be accepted? etc.) . I haven't even started to research that yet.

No, it's not accepted from what I was just told last week.  I mean they can titer her and if her levels are high enough you could choose to not vaccinate her for rabies.  But, there is no official waiver for it and if something were to happen even if you had the blood work results she would still be considered unvaccinated. 

What my vet did last week was extended her 2 year to a 3 year so it bought us one more year to figure this out.  And, she did this based on the fact that lots of states have gone to a three year protocol already. 

I JUST MIGHT TRY TO GET WILLOW'S LAW PASSED!!! 

Milk thistle -- http://www.leavesandroots.com -- milk thistle never goes bad!  You want the ground herb -- the quality is very good.  I like to get certified organic but she doesn't have it in the ground milk thistle. 

Milk thistle and Sam-e don't negatively impact any antibiotic or meds.  Sam-e is pricey -- I've been using the Cell Food Sam-e -- it's a liquid (drops) and expensive ($43 for a tiny bottle) BUT it seems to last longer and be more cost-effective than sam-e in the little foil packets.  I've been giving Billy 13-14 drops twice a day.

Hi all.  Seems to have been a false alarm with Tessy last night.  I was kinda worried she might have had a blockage cause she squated a good 5-7 times with nothing coming out.  She's currently on cephelexin for her UTI and skin condition, which the doctor just prescribed an extra weeks worth so she'll finish next week on these instead of yesterday.  She started to pee normally again last night and has been since.  Her gums are nice and pink (although not quite as pink as they probably should be), she's eating and drinking normally, her stool is firm, and to be honest, I think that the whole shaving her the other day really did something positive.  She seems to want to play more now, her face seems more peachy, and for the first time since she got sick she's starting to sleep up on the couch beside me!  I'll be keeping my eyes glued to her today to ensure there are no more noticable problems.  Currently she's snoring up a storm laying next to me as I write.

Thanks for the advise and concern,

Johnny & Tessy

Johnny&Tessy

and to be honest, I think that the whole shaving her the other day really did something positive. 

The skin takes SUCH a hard hit with the pred and cyclosporine (and dang, they are prescribed FOR inflammation and skin problems very often).  I bathed Billy *every* day (just a rinse even to get the allergens off him) to help reduce the problems.  But yes, he's most always shaved down and I *never* let his ears get long & shaggy in a typical cocker cut **because it's too heavy and causes ear problems**. 

He's gotten just a tad shaggy and in about 20 minutes we leave for the groomer!!  But when there are skin problems the shorter the cut the better (you don't want razor burn but the hair just holds staph otherwise).

 Glad to here Tessy is feeling better!!!

Hi Kate, I am new here too! We also have a pound dog that was just Dx with IMHA. 

Anyone ever used Denamarin? It is a combination of Milk thistle and SAMe that is sold based on the dogs weight....so Calypso we would use the one for a 40ib dog and shew wil get 1 pill a day. 

Callie I will call you this weekend! I am on the way to pick up my kids from grandma's house but will try you later today :)

cerberusdog

Anyone ever used Denamarin? It is a combination of Milk thistle and SAMe that is sold based on the dogs weight....so Calypso we would use the one for a 40ib dog and shew wil get 1 pill a day.

Willow used it.  But, two products. One is called Denosyl (I think that's the way it's spelled) and you would give one pill based on the dogs weight after at least 4 hours of fasting.  It's a big pill so you'll probably need to hide it in something like cream cheese or peanut butter.  It's too big to just put down the throat or I least that's how I felt.  And, then you wait one hour to feed.  Then after they eat they can get the Marin which is a chewable and easy to break up.  For your dog, she'd probably get 1/2 a Marin daily.  Willow is about 50 lbs and that's what she took. 

I usually just put the half of the Marin pill in the meal that Willow ate at night. 

It's good liver protection and Willow's blood work inproved after just two weeks on these products.

 This is for sure called Denamarin here is a website on it http://www.drugs.com/vet/denamarin.html

I will have to check on the ones you mentions, thanks for letting me know!

I do hav eto laugh when you mention about a pill too large to shove down their throats! We do not have any problem giving Calypso pills, all she has to do is think she is getting something and she takes it eagerly, but we usually mix it with something like cheese or ,moist dog food...LOL

Did I mention that she ate a bird last week...yes an entire bird! She was sitting in the yard and then chased theis bird then all I saw ere feathers in her mouth  I was like, what do I do now! Then last night she jumped up on the kitchen counter...all four legs on the counter  and ate a chicken wing...never in my life have I had a dog that motivated for food!

cerberusdog

 This is for sure called Denamarin here is a website on it http://www.drugs.com/vet/denamarin.html

I will have to check on the ones you mentions, thanks for letting me know!

Denosyl & Marin are made by Nutramax -- same company that makes Cosequin.  Denamarin is just a more convenient form they are mareting now that has both -- and they have tried to get vets to USE both at once, the Denamarin just makes it in one formula.  If you go back to page 49 of this huge thread - you'll see a similar discussion but I'm going to cheat and copy my response here.  In short, they are excellent products **however** there are limits as to how much of the pharmaceuticals you can use safely **BECAUSE** they are a pharmaceutical.  And honestly I think it depends on the individual animal, what they're taking and what you're trying to do.  If you've already *got* high liver values, then you want the detox of one of the products with/like Sam-e -- but if you are trying to **protect** the liver then you don't really need the sam-e -- at least not in quantity.  However if you are trying to protect both liver and kidneys you have to go higher dose, which you can't with the Marin or denamarin.

 Let me restate - Nutramax stuff is excellent quality and I'm not knocking any of their products.  But, I have some reservations about them and som problems with the company practices.

calliecritturs

willowchow

I still cannot say enough about Denosyl and Marin.

Marin IS a really good product.  It **IS** milk thistle -- it's simply milk thistle that has been ultra refined by a pharmaceutical process.  Sort of "concentrated" in a way.

Denosyl is a supplement -- it's pretty much Sam-e.  This will help explain it better: http://nutramaxanimalhealth.com/Products/liver-health-pet-supplements.aspx#SAMe

Where the silymarin/milk thistle/marin is a protectant, the sam-e is a detox for the most part.  Now milk thistle/silymarin/marin DOES detox to a degree, but if you want that serious "detox" you use the sam-e with it (and the Denosyl is formulated specifically to go WITH Marin). 

The company that makes Marin and Denosyl is the same company that makes Adequan and Cosequin.  It is a VERY reputable good quality product. 

Now having said that -- there are specific reasons why I prefer the milk thistle as an herb, and I probably like Cell Food's Sam-e the best so far of the Sam-e's I've used. 

Because Marin is so processed -- yes, it is predictable.  But it also carries with it the problems inherent in ANY pharmaceutical.  It's not "natural" so it's not as easily "disposed" of by the body so you can't use large amounts of it.  It's essentially a pharmaceutical version of milk thistle.  So you gain the consistency and predictability you can get with a pharmaceutical but you *pay* in the fact that you can get harmful effects from "too much" (as in toxicity) that you aren't as likely to get with the natural herb.

My other reason is actually personal.  As I said Marin is manufactured by the same company that does Cosequin, Adequan, etc.  It is a very reputable, good quality company.  BUT ... I don't like their way of testing their stuff.  They have no problem inducing liver failure to TEST how their problem works on liver failure.  IN other words, they don't go out and look for dogs in liver failure to try to "help".  They will chemically induce a particular problem (to try to more tightly control that "control" group so all the animals have the same "level" of toxicity, etc. so they can "measure" it more closely). 

I understand *why* they do it.  But for me, personally, it is taking chemistry too far -- that's "animal testing" that I just plain can't condone.  So I won't use their products.

I can't emphasize enough -- it is a very reputable company, and it IS an ***excellent*** product.  But it's just not something I want to use when there is a natural available that I can use. 

I really didn't know about Sam-e when I was dealing with Billy's stuff (I had to learn that to deal with Tink's and Billy's liver issues this past winter).  If I had, I would have used Sam-e on Billy 3 years ago too probably.

The Cell Food Sam-e is pricey (ALL Sam-e is pricey -- I haven't found any of it that isn't).  BUT it's a liquid!!  Now this little bottle is $42.00 -- but it lasts a LONG time (like way over a month and I've been giving it heavily to two dogs -- like 10 drops to each dog twice a day).  And I like Cell Food anyway -- it's a darned good supplement that *I* have used, so the fact that this has a bit of Cell Food in it suits me big time.

Bottom line I'm just trying to explain the Marin + Denosyl **pretty much equals** milk thistle + sam-e. 

Al that being said -- at the stage you are in, Cerberus, AND given your dog is on cyclosporine which is **legend** not just to be hard on the liver but the KIDNEYS as well, I would be recommending milk thistle rather than the pharmaceutical.  Because it's only in the huge whopping doses of milk thistle that you gain the protection for the kidneys.

By whopping doses -- I mean a heaping teaspoon of milk thistle powder or more given twice a day and/or milk thistle tincture along with hit.  When Billy was taking the steroids and steroid-like drugs (pred and cyclosporine) I was giving him FIVE droppers *full* of Herb Pharm milk thistle tincture twice a day.and adding milk thistle powder on top of that (caps - I didn't know I could buy it bulk then).  Milk tistle tincture is stronger than the powder, but it's pricey.  I can buy a whole pound of milk thistle powder for what I can buy one small bottle of tincture for.  BUT I'm not going to knock it -- it kept his kidneys and liver in one piece.

cerberusdog

We do not have any problem giving Calypso pills, all she has to do is think she is getting something and she takes it eagerly, but we usually mix it with something like cheese or ,moist dog food...LOL

I want this as a separate post b/c I don't want it to get lost -- don't give Calypso (this is the one with IMHA right?) dairy now -- dairy inhibits the absorption of cyclosporine -- Poor Billy -- he LOVES dairy better than anything and I'd always given him his meds in yogurt or ricotta cheese and we discovered it was one of the things preventing the cyclosporine from being absorbed by the body.  So avoid *any* dairy -- that was something the University of Florida at Gainesville was studying at the time.

I would ask the vet then which one would be best, the combined product or taking them separately.   

calliecritturs

But it's just not something I want to use when there is a natural available that I can use. 

My only issue is that Willow took huge doses of good quality milk thistle BEFORE she started with liver problems and she STILL developed them.  She took Denosyl/Marin combo for two weeks and the next blood test was much improved.  Within the month, the levels were normal again.

I'm just giving my experience here. This is all going to be up to the individual to decide which they prefer--there is no right/wrong.

And, frankly, company policy wasn't and issue for me at that point.  My dog was so sick all I cared about was her being OK.  So, whatever worked is what I wanted to do. 

I know Willow seemed to tolerate the Marin better than milk thistle -- but it was the *Denosyl* that actually brought down the liver levels (Denosyl is essentially the same stuff that is in Sam-e) -- milk thistle is more *protectant* but there are gonna be times when despite the milk thistle the liver still can't handle the whole load and you'll see elevated levels. 

But you wouldn't see JUST milk thistle be able to bring levels down -- it takes the combo of milk thistle *and* sam-e to do that and Marin + Denosyl is that combo (and they are both stronger versions because that's part of the point is to distill them chemically to be a bit stronger).   So yes, absolutely -- you would have definitely seen a reduction in the liver values after the **combo** of Marin + Denosyl. 

Milk thistle -- nor Marin -- are a definite insurance policy against the liver developing problems.  But they DO *protect* -- now how much?  That all depends on the individual dog and what shape the liver was in pre-illness and how many meds have done ???? to the body.  That's all going to be completely individual. 

Now also remember -- the dose of milk thistle I used on Billy was HUGE -- literally over five times the adult human dose given TWICE a day.  And frankly, I went even higher than that.  I could *not* have given him a dose that high of Marin.  And my aim, at the time, wasn't just to protect the liver ... but I was actually aiming to protect his kidneys (remember, I'd just lost a dog TO renal failure and I was more scared of renal problems than liver problems especially given Billy's reaction to the cyclosporine causing all the urinary tract/kidney problems).

And much of it also can depend on how bad the liver problems are before you find it -- you can get pretty astronomical liver values and the dog can be asymptomatic so just saying the liver values were "high" is kind of too much a general term so I don't want to mislead anyone here. 

But I think every time I've posted about this I have *mentione* Willow SPECIFICALLY because she's a perfect example that every dog IS different and she didn't tolerate the milk thistle as well as she tolerated the Marin, so for her that was absolutely the right choice.

That's why I always say it's a darned GOOD quality stuff (Marin, Denosyl, Denamarin) -- but it's simply milk thistle and sam-e distilled into a pharmaceutical grade.  That's not a 'bad' thing -- it's just what it is.  And like anything driven by "medical opinion" there are good and bad things on all sides of it.

But I think it's critical for folks to read and heed what Lori is saying here about Willow -- cos not everyone's dog is going to react the same way.  *And* not everyone is at all comfortable with an herb ... so some folks are just going to rather use the pharmaceutical grade stuff.  And that's not a bad thing -- it's an individual thing.

 Yippppeee! I have finally made it all the way through this thread .
I was just curious about a few things, really just looking for a recap

1. Who is currently battling IMHA? I think this is Mike(Clops), Johnny (Tessy), Val (Cooper), Jess (Izzy), and maybe Lori (Willow)...I am sure I forgot someone

2. For those currently battling IMHA:
         a.  How old is your dog
         b.  How long has it been since since IMHA was diagnosed?
         c.  What meds are you on with most recent HCT
         d.  Any major complications?

3. For those that have had a dog with IMHA:
         a.  How long has it been since your dog was diagnosed with IMHA
         b.  Are you still on any meds (only meaning cyclosporin, not herbs and such)
         c.  How long did your treatment course take til you were off meds?
         d.  Have you experienced any long term side from IMHA or the meds used to treat it?

Thanks, hope you all do not mind the question

Wendi and Calypso