AIHA or IMHA

Coopbay

i've been out of school for less than 2 weeks and my grammar suffers. :)

Yep, my brain is in full-on rot mode! No Grey's tomorrow, boo, but is Coop still doing blood tomorrow?

Pirate went today to get his potassium bromide (seizure medicine) level checked and I had them do a CBC, it was perfect :) It's still nice to hear, even after a year and a half of him being 'healthy'!!

Great news for Pirate! Congrats!! No Grey's, but do you watch So You Think You Can Dance? I love it. I do love tv so if you need any recommendations, just ask. :) Cooper is not going in for blood work tomorrow, but my vet is going to be calling me to let me know if I should come in next week for a CBC or Hemocrit.

Coopbay

I gave Cooper two droppers of milk thistle on top of the two big scoops. I noticed his stools were a little more softer than usual. Would milk thistle cause that?

 

Cyclops had loose stools (not diahreah but just not really solid) when she was on the high doses of Cyclo.  Thats not to say it can't be the Milk Thistle.  I give Clops a teaspoon full of Milk Thistle in the morning and one at Night.  I opened capsules and I forgot how many I had to open to get to the amount I give her in one serving.  

I remember when I started I was giving 4 capsules 4 times a day.. 16 of the 275mg capsules a day and Callie said increase it more.. so I was like OK.. I better just give it to her by the teaspoon full which is probably like giving her 100 pills a day.  I haven't noticed anything wrong and her values have gotten closer and closer to normal every time we measure.  Is it the Milk Thistle or just that we are lowering the Cyclo?  I don't know but there is enough research on the benefits of Milk Thistle and all my vets liked the idea of it..so hopefully it is protecting the liver and kidneys.  I know it makes me feel like I'm doing something.

Lori is right about everything she recommended too.  

Keep an eye on the stools though, if its just soft I think you'll be fine but if it gets watery then you want to get it checked out.  Maybe the Cooper's stomach doesn't get along well with the tincture.  Try giving just dry Milk Thistle powder for a few days and see if the stools return to normal.

sl2crmeg

It's still nice to hear, even after a year and a half of him being 'healthy'!!

 

 It sure is!  Alright Pirate!  If I was there I'd give you some cookies!

willowchow

I still cannot say enough about Denosyl and Marin.

Marin IS a really good product.  It **IS** milk thistle -- it's simply milk thistle that has been ultra refined by a pharmaceutical process.  Sort of "concentrated" in a way.

Denosyl is a supplement -- it's pretty much Sam-e.  This will help explain it better: http://nutramaxanimalhealth.com/Products/liver-health-pet-supplements.aspx#SAMe

Where the silymarin/milk thistle/marin is a protectant, the sam-e is a detox for the most part.  Now milk thistle/silymarin/marin DOES detox to a degree, but if you want that serious "detox" you use the sam-e with it (and the Denosyl is formulated specifically to go WITH Marin). 

The company that makes Marin and Denosyl is the same company that makes Adequan and Cosequin.  It is a VERY reputable good quality product. 

Now having said that -- there are specific reasons why I prefer the milk thistle as an herb, and I probably like Cell Food's Sam-e the best so far of the Sam-e's I've used. 

Because marin is so processed -- yes, it is predictable.  But it also carries with it the problems inherent in ANY pharmaceutical.  It's not "natural" so it's not as easily "disposed" of by the body so you can't use large amounts of it.  It's essentially a pharmaceutical version of milk thistle.  So you gain the consistency and predictability you can get with a pharmaceutical but you *pay* in the fact that you can get harmful effects from "too much" (as in toxicity) that you aren't as likely to get with the natural herb.

My other reason is actually personal.  As I said Marin is manufactured by the same company that does Adequan, etc.  It is a very reputable, good quality company.  BUT ... I don't like their way of testing their stuff.  They have no problem inducing liver failure to TEST how their problem works on liver failure.  IN other words, they don't go out and look for dogs in liver failure to try to "help".  They will chemically induce a particular problem (to try to more tightly control that "control" group so all the animals have the same "level" of toxicity, etc. so they can "measure" it more closely). 

I understand *why* they do it.  But for me, personally, it is taking chemistry too far -- that's "animal testing" that I just plain can't condone.  So I won't use their products.

I can't emphasize enough -- it is a very reputable company, and it IS an ***excellent*** product.  But it's just not something I want to use when there is a natural available that I can use. 

I really didn't know about Sam-e when I was dealing with Billy's stuff (I had to learn that to deal with Tink's and Billy's liver issues this past winter).  If I had, I would have used Sam-e on Billy 3 years ago too probably.

The Cell Food Sam-e is pricey (ALL Sam-e is pricey -- I haven't found any of it that isn't).  BUT it's a liquid!!  Now this little bottle is $42.00 -- but it lasts a LONG time (like way over a month and I've been giving it heavily to two dogs -- like 10 drops to each dog twice a day).  And I like Cell Food anyway -- it's a darned good supplement that *I* have used, so the fact that this has a bit of Cell Food in it suits me big time.

Bottom line I'm just trying to explain the Marin + Denosyl **pretty much equals** milk thistle + sam-e. 

GratefulDawg

Is it the Milk Thistle or just that we are lowering the Cyclo?  I don't know but there is enough research on the benefits of Milk Thistle and all my vets liked the idea of it..so hopefully it is protecting the liver and kidneys.  I know it makes me feel like I'm doing something.

Billy's stool was soft on the cyclosporine as well. 

the milk thistle IS protecting things -- she's had such an awesome recovery.  And just the fact that she's taking the cyclo without massive problems pretty much tells you that you're doing the right thing but you won't KNOW until long after (like I've said about Billy's recovery).

But I tell ya -- just that feeling of "I'm DOING SOMETHING to really **help** here!" -- man -- you can NOT underestimate how good that feels.  This darned disease makes you feel SOOO Powerless!!

 

I totally agree with you Callie! I feel like something we are doing is working! I talked to my regular vet today and she finally got a hold of the Arboretum vet. He was extremely happy with Cooper's last CBC and Chem25. He said Cooper is in the normal range and saw no toxicity with the liver panel. Here's his "plan." We are going to continue to lower the Pred slowly. In a week, we will lower the pred to 10mg in the am and 5mg in the pm. Then in 2 weeks have another CBC and lower the pred a week later to 5mg and 5mg. Once we are here, he wants to lower the pred even slower. Every 4 weeks lower and lower until he is no longer on the pred. He would like to do a CBC every 3-4 weeks and a Chem 25 every 2-3 months. Once Cooper is off the pred, we will begin to lower the Azathioprine. Both my vet and the Arboretum vet are very positive and happy with how Cooper is doing and how his body is reacting to the meds. This makes me really thankful for all of you helping us and sharing with me what has worked for you and helped you. I am continuing the cranberry, d-mannatose, Sam-e, milk thistle, aspirin, Nutra Joint, and Pepcid AC. I still give Cooper some beef heart a few times a week since he loves it! I'm still keeping a super close eye on him as always. I just pray that Cooper continues to do well. I have so many of you to look to for our future and hope that Cooper is as successful as many of your babies. :)

THAT SO TOADALLY ROCKS!!!!!!!!

Billy the Venturin English cocker

spanYELL

*dang dog's always beating me to the 'puter!*

Val, I think that is pretty darned awesome!!!  Weaning off ... that's awesome.

Tessy's stool also seemed to be "more softer" after she was put on the cyclosporine.  She gets a couple of teaspoons of pumpkin a day which seems to make the stool "more harder". LOL 

Wonderfull news for both Pirate and Cooper.  Someone is doing the right things!  Congrats.

Hope everyone else and their furkids are doing great.  Have a Fab weekend.

 

Johnny & Tessy

Coop!  Great news, so glad to hear how well he's doing.  Getting off the pred will be so great.  BTW, I was flipping thru channels and saw that show "you think you can dance", good dancers but that woman judge is just too much.  I had to change the channel, her screeching just went thru me like a knife. lol

Pi man, you rock little dude!  Keep on getting those good results and I hope he can stay seizure free, Meg. 

Stay stable and hang in there all you immune compromised doggies.  Your humans sure do love you a bunch.

HOLY COW, Cooper! Congrats, Val! I'm so totally doing the happy dance!!!!

And Grey's WAS on last night - it was a rerun with the death row guy. I don't watch too much TV, besides Grey's. We only have like 12 channels :)

hi everyone.

 i am so glad to find this community. my name is jess, and i have an 18 month old chihuahua named izzy. my husband and i don't have any kids (yet) and izzy is the love of our life. she was diagnosed with IMHA about a month ago. i wish i had been a member of this community back then, as the first week was really terrifying.

long story short, she was acting really lethargic, we took her to the vet, she was diagnosed with IMHA and had a PCV of 19, they sent us home with prednisone, the next day we took her back and her PCV was 14, and she ended up having three blood transfusions over the next five days. we actually took her to a speciality vet hospital in kansas city (we live in michigan but were in nebraska visiting my parents) for the transfusions because my parents' vet in NE didn't do transfusions and the emergency clinic was kind of sketchy. my mom, hubby, and i stayed in KC with her for five days. thankfully, she is doing much, much better- she seems to be responding really well to the prednisone. her most recent PCV (on friday) was 50! we are now starting to taper the pred. and are going weekly to our vet here in ann arbor for re-checks.

so that's our story. i have a few questions for you guys, though.

1) what do most of you do in terms of immunizations? with izzy, we never figured out why she had the IMHA (which seems to be pretty normal) but a few people suggested that immunizations may have caused it. do any of you do titers? the vet here was really agreeable to this, thank goodness, but i just wondered if that was normal for IMHA dogs.

2) what kinds of things should i watch for or be careful of now that she is doing better? i am terrified she will relapse. every day i check her gums, and since i'm a grad student i am home a lot so she is with me most of the day, but i don't know if i should be looking for specific things.

 thanks, everyone, for sharing your stories and your expertise. i had never heard of IMHA before izzy became sick, and i've been looking like crazy for information since her diagnosis.

:-)

Jess and Izzy
 

Hi Jess and Izzy.  I'm sure all the IMHA moms and dads will be along with their suggestions.  But, my dog, Willow, had a disease very similar to IMHA called IMT and it can turn into IMHA. 

The very first thing my vet said to me is no further vaccines ever. 

And, as far as worrying about relapse, I also worry every single day.  I try not too though but it's very hard.  All you can do is your best to avoid the possible triggers like stress, vaccines, chemicals.  And, monitor so if anything does come up you catch it early.  But, mostly I try to just live life normally.  The worry was really taking me over at one time. 

 

Thank you so much, Willowchow! That is really helpful. My aunt is the director of a humane society, and she doesn't vaccinate her dogs (border collies) even though they don't have IMHA or other health issues, and she told me not to vaccinate after Izz was diagnosed. However, she said that she was afraid my vet might fight me on it since vets make a living on vaccinating. So I went to talk to my vet in Ann Arbor with a whole prepared speech on vaccinating and titers and I didn't need it because she was on board - although she did say that since Izz had just had her three year booster in February, we wouldn't have to even think about it for a while. However, she didn't bring it up - I did. So I was not clear on whether it was common knowledge among vets not to vaccinate or what.

 Do I need to find a special vet who specializes in IMHA? We live near the Michigan State vet school and apparently there is a researcher there who does IMHA stuff. Should I try to get connected with him?

Finally, I have another question for everyone: do steroids make your dogs aggressive and/or withdrawn, or is that the IMHA? izzy does not want to sit with me as much as she used to - she used to be in my lap whenever i was sitting, but now she'd rather be on her own. And she was really snappy at my parents' dog before we came back to michigan. she also doesn't really touch her toys anymore, and she used to play with them all the time. i know she's recently recovering, i just wasn't sure if this was medication related or due to her IMHA.