AIHA or IMHA

Coopbay

I just bought the Knox Nutra Joint. How much should I give and how often?

About 1/3 scoop once a day in food.  It's a bit milky tasting - they like it usually.

Coopbay

He started digging outside and eating dirt again.

 

Thats an IMHA symptom.  Once he is less anemic that should stop.  What I worried about was how my dog grabbed a big mouthful of potting soil out of a planter that had god knows how much fertilizer chemicals in it.  It only happened once and she barfed immediately after that.  

This is a good site that also recognizes the soil eating as a symptom:

http://www.thepethealthportal.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=214

Coopbay

he turned around and he lost balance and fell over

 

This could be him getting used to the Cyclo.  Or he could just be weak from the anemia.  If his PCV comes back high next time then I'd say its the Cyclo.  If it is, it will get better.  Seems to take them a little while to get used to it.  Clop was very off balance and weak for a while.  

 

calliecritturs

they like it usually.

 Yeah Clop likes it, she'll lick the powder all by itself if you let her.

It's Thursday again and not only will Grey's Anatomy's last episode of the season take place, Cooper is going to the vet. He is supposed to be getting a CBC, Urinalysis, and a liver screen. I honestly don't think his UTI went away. He was on the meds for 8 days and his last day was this Tuesday. Yesterday and today he is drinking like crazy and going to the bathroom often. :(

Callie, the beef heart came in yesterday and I picked it up. I bought 12 pounds of it. They cut it into cubes and put wrapped a handful at a time for me to freeze. I cooked up one handful last night and he loved it. I only gave him 4-5 cubes. Hopefully this helps him too.

 Mike, the website you wrote about yesterday was a great resource. Thanks!

 I hope everyone crosses their fingers for Cooper tonight. I hope it goes well. I probably won't get the blood results until Friday but we'll know if he still has a UTI or not.

Earlier this week, I ordered the Cyclosporine and the aspirin. The aspirin didn't have a refill so they had to call Arboretum. Then the drug store said that Arboretum wanted my regular vet to prescribe the meds because they haven't seen Cooper in awhile. I don't understand that. I thought they were communicating to my regular vet and letting her know what drugs Cooper needs. I don't know if I need to go to Arboretum to have them see Cooper or if my regular vet just needs to talk to them again! So annoying!

 

 

Just talk to your regular vet and tell him what to call in.  My regular vet knows that I research everything and he pretty much writes whatever Rx I ask him for.  Like when I wanted the special shampoo or Cyclo refills.  I have no idea why the drug store would even need an Rx called in for Aspirin refills.  They are just compounding it because its too hard to try to cut up an Aspirin to give that small of a dose.  So they measure out grains of Aspirin and mix it in with an inert carrier so you can give it to the dog.

Arboretum wants money.  They want you to see them and they don't want to give out free advice or free help.  So the best thing to do is deal with your regular vet.  I hate that you're in this situation because the sob's should help your doctor taper the meds down its not rocket science.  Your vet should be able to handle a UTI.  I mean somehow he got his medical license.  

The drinking of the water is the Prednisone.  Makes Coop very thirsty.  Probably its good that he keeps flushing out his bladder with all that water. 

Will definately be thinking of Coop today.  And you too Val

Good luck with everything!
 

 

Val, I hope your regular vet will just write the danged rx - I know how frustrating the run-around can be!

Like Mike said, it could be the pred making him drink like that -- have you tried adding some water to Coop's food? The wetter I made Pirate's food the less he wanted to drink - not like it helped with the peeing but I just felt bad that he was so thirsty, all the time. I could get his food up to half and half with water and he didn't care.

I have to work tonight so I'll miss Grey's -- BOO! Thank goodness it's online, that's the only way I can keep up when school is in.

GratefulDawg

Your vet should be able to handle a UTI.  I mean somehow he got his medical license.  

The drinking of the water is the Prednisone.  Makes Coop very thirsty.  Probably its good that he keeps flushing out his bladder with all that water. 

Yes ... and No ... to ALL of that all at the same time.

The UTI's that go with cyclosporine (when a dog experiences UTI's AS a side effect to the cyclo) are UNREAL.  I have never EVER seen the like of it -- Billy was in h-e-double-hockey-sticks for 18 MONTHS with them. 

We got to the point where we didn't even bother with a mere urinalysis.  We HAD to do not only a urinalysis but ALSO a culture and sensitivity with every single "new" one that started because it kept switching bacteria on us AND you had to know what this bacteria was resistant to in order to put the dog on the LOWEST antibiotic available for THIS bacteria.

See, typically, a dog will get maybe 1 of 2 different bacteria causing a UTI -- routine, very very very ROUTINE and maybe some "rods" to treat. 

Nope -- not with this.  Because they are SO immune-suppressed and because the kidneys/bladder/urinary tract are SUCH a target because of the side effects of the drug you never know WHAT the heck bacteria you'll find or what *this* bacteria may respond to.

He had all the typical, he had ALSO strep (YES in a UTI), staph, "unknown bacteria" as well as heavy hitters like pseudamonas (which is typically just a nasty horrid internal or skin infection but Billy got it in a UTI in concer **with** strep).

Often we'd be able to control it with Chinese herbs (see you don't want to use antibiotics on a dog with auto-immune -- not any more than absolutely necessary because antibiotics CAN trigger more auto-immune BUT you can't let them be inflamed either -- uri's can be fatal, and inflammation itself will also **huge big sigh** CAUSE more auto-immune).

So sometimes they'd start him on something like cephalexyn - which is an absurd drug for a UTI (it's normally for skin) BUT if the culture and sensitivity showed it would kill THAT bacteria that's where we started (sometimes for 2-3 weeks before it would kill it).   But then if it didn't reduce it at all we'd have to move up -- usually avoiding amoxyl (because it can trigger auto-immune) but sometimes ramping from Baytril all the way up to Ceftin and bigger "shotgun" human drugs.  Some of them two in concert at a time.

For a freaking UTI!!! *sigh*

Val -- once again, tell your "regular" vet she can call Dr. DiNatale -- or Dr. Bailey -- if they can help because of all Billy went thru.  Dr. Goldkamp will also be fine with me giving you her email (she's no longer at UF -- she's gone into private practice). 

so no -- the drinking of water is probably NOT *just* the pred.  When you get UTIs this hard and this FAST there are times when the drinking of water is the ONLY small clue you'll get before they begin peeing rivers of blood. 

Val -- this is exactly why I said don't let it go long before you have the urine tested -- typically you'd wait 4-6 days before testing and you CAN'T in this case because the bacteria will become resistant to that drug and you'll have to go to a bigger one.

You may want to do more d-mannose (Billy took a whole teaspoon of it twice a day). 

 

Meg- I use the water trick in the food too! Lately, he drinks the water in his food first and then eats the food. Arboretum did give the ok to refill the aspirin but they gave the pharmacy a hard time. My vet office has been getting the run around from Arboretum too. The receptionist told me Arboretum basically dropped me. My vet can call the doctor I was seeing and talk to him but that's it. Arboretum is mostly a place for vets can refer to for extra help but they don't see you on a regular basis I guess. I don't understand. My regular vet has been doing a lot of research. I told her to look at Hemopet website. We had a good talk today and we both think Cooper should start to take less Pred. Right now he is taking 20mg twice a day. She would like to decrease it to 30mg a day. (20 and 10) She is going to clear this with the other guy but she is worried about the Pred. I am too. She also would like to decrease the Azathoiprine too. So, today we did a Hematocrit and and adult screen Chem25 CBC, Urine. The adult screen was sent to the lab. His numbers went up to 35!!! I was very happy. I know it has been 2 weeks since I got his last blood test and I was hoping for another increase from 26. We weighed Cooper again and he has lost a little weight again but not much. When we were walking out the door of the vet, a man saw my 2 beagles. He thought Cooper was an 8 month old puppy! He does look younger and a bunch smaller than Bailey, but it was another surprise to hear it from a stranger. Callie- Cooper is taking a teaspoon of the D-Mannose both in the morning and at night since you told me it would be good for him to take it. :)

 35!  Wow!  So great.  So see, Coops behavior is not from the anemia but more likely from the UTI and all the drugs making him feel bad.

What Callie said about the UTI - so true.  So much harder to resolve this given that his immune system is shot right now.  In humans its less common for males to get UTI and more common for female.  So I was looking into why both Billie and Cooper are having these UTI's.  In America most male humans are circumsized and therefore its easier to keep things clean.  But in a dog the penis retracts and things can kind of fester there more than in a female dog.

I know that was kind of graphic but don't know how else to say it.

So I'm wondering if it would help to wash Coop down there more often with KetoChlor or EtiDerm.  I mean I know giving full baths is a real pain but if he hopped in the shower and you sprayed his undercarriage and then soaped and rinsed.  Don't know if it would prevent another one from occuring or not - but its just a thought.

Hey.. can't say enough how pleased I am with the 35. 

Can't wait to hear your results on the urine test.

 

 Callie you're so right about the UTI causing lots of water drinking and peeing.  I had kinda thought (or hoped) that the UTI was resolved and maybe the thirst was from the Pred.  But well now you have a double whammy on thirst. 

I had a dog that had a UTI once.  Never any blood, but keep drinking and then having accidents in the house.  I took her in thinking maybe she was diabetic but thankfully it was just a UTI.  I say "just" because in her case there were no immune problems and the UTI was resolved very quickly with antibiotics.

Baytril is a great antibiotic.  The same dog had chronic ear infections and Baytril cleared it right up.  I think it was a psudemonas (sp?) if I remember right.

Keeping Cooper more "clean" might help -- mostly it's because they lay on their belly and walk thru anything and everything.  Just imagine the yuck they pick up just laying on the floor at the vet??

Val - you can also increase the cranberry to 2 caps twice a day. 

You're giving just the milk thistle powder, right?  Maybe you should do the tincture too since he's having so many uti problems -- simply to help protect the kidneys a bit more (it works a bit different than the powder and I use both tincture and powder on Tink and Billy now too).

Dang I wished he hadn't picked that particular side effect to have.  *sigh*

Callie- I thought I was giving Cooper a tsp of D-Mannose twice a day but this morning when I was giving it to him, I noticed it was a 1/2 tsp! I will up it to 1 tsp twice a day. As for the cranberry caps, I have been giving him 2 capsules twice a day. :) I have not been giving Cooper the tincture. He gets a nice heaping teaspoon of milk thistle twice a day.

The vet called and said his urine was ok. No UTI right now. She talked to Arboretum and they said it is ok to go down on the Pred. So we are doing 20mg and 10mg for a total of 30mg a day. The liver test came back ok too.

Good -- it's likely the d-mannose and cranberry are helping.  Glad the tests came back ok. 

 I'm glad that UTI is cleared up.  Now you're on the right track reducing that Pred.  Keep pushing to taper it slowly but surely and keep taking the PCV each time before you reduce again.  This monday I'll be getting Clops a CBC and Iron again.  Hoping to see some improvement in the Iron.  If the PCV is the same or better than last month then we're going to reduce the Cyclo from 125 2x/day to 100. 

Glad that Arboretum cooperated in letting your vet reduce.  Did you get your Rx called in for the Aspirin ok?