AIHA or IMHA

    • Bronze

    Stores around here don't stock beef heart.  I asked the butcher at a local grocery store and he said he could get a 60 pound box for .99 cents/lb. There are a few more places in the area I'm gong to try to see if I can find any in less quantity.

     Right now I'm just pouring on the hummus.  Don't know why she won't take her pills in the humus anymore.  But she will take it in the peanut butter and in the liverworst.  I had some ham salad and gave her pills in that, no problem.  Just all of a sudden she lost her appetite for hummus.  She had gone through pounds and pounds of hummus.. I was buying multiple containers at once.  When I stopped the pred.. no more hummus.  She'll still eat it but is just not crazy for it like she was before.  Maybe she got tired of it?

     I've been reading more and more about Sam-E  aka S-adenosyl-L-methionine  aka Denosyl.

    She seems ok with milk thistle in her food so I think I'll try to find some in bulk powder.. for one thing this dog is suppose to weigh between 45-50 pounds max and she is now 64 pounds.  I feel bad because at the vet school she was 71 pounds and they got her down to 60 pounds and said to get another 10 off of her.  But I'm feeding her so much food with the pills that she's gaining again. 

    I'm not sure how to get her to lose weight.  They say she'll be healthier if she loses.

     

     

    • Bronze

    Just thought I'd mention that the recommended dose of Milk Thistle for dogs is 50-200mg 2x/day.  So thats a max of 400mg per day and I'm giving 2200mg. 

     

    • Bronze

     

    Intoxications are commonly seen in the emergency care units, and mostly young dogs are affected. Not always are antidots available. This interesting case report documents that S-Adenosyl-L-Methionine (SAMe) is an effective therapeutic option in acetaminophen toxicity.

    An 8-month-old, spayed female Shetland sheepdog presented 48 hours after ingesting acetaminophen (1 gm/kg body weight).

    On presentation, the dog was laterally recumbent and hypovolemic.

    The dog had brown mucous membranes, severe Heinz-body hemolytic anemia, bleeding tendencies, and a red blood cell (RBC) glutathione (GSH) concentration that was 10% of reference values, despite a regenerative erythroid response.

    Treatment with s-adenosyl-l-methionine (SAMe) as a GSH donor successfully rescued this dog, despite the animal’s late presentation after drug ingestion.

    A loading dose (40 mg/kg body weight) of a stable SAMe salt per os was followed by a maintenance dose (20 mg/kg body weight) sid for 7 days. Additional therapeutic interventions included an intravenous (IV) infusion of one unit of packed RBCs (on admission), IV fluid support (3 days), and famotidine (7 days) to reduce gastric acidity.

    Sequential assessment of RBC GSH concentrations and RBC morphology documented response to antidote administration within 72 hours.

    This case suggests that SAMe may provide a therapeutic option for treatment of acetaminophen toxicosis in dogs capable of retaining an orally administered antidote and maintaining adequate hepatic function for metabolism of SAMe to its thiol substrates.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Sam E would be a good addition.  Billy and Tink are both going on it this weekend (because both of their blood work came back high liver values in different respects). 

    When talking about HERBS (including barks and 'plant' matter) "dose" becomes a tricky word -- simply because bottom line these things are plants and quality, bulk, etc. all come into play.  It can depend on how well the capsule is packed, how finely the herb is ground, and MOSTLY how good the quality is of the herb.

    Think, in real life, How many tomatoes would you use in your tomato sauce?  Well ... that depends!  It depends on how big the tomatoes are, what variety they are, and how much juice to flesh there is in that variety.  It also depends on how good the quality is of them.

    When you get into herbs SOME places will just grind up whatever gets harvested -- including weeds, and other parts of the plant that may get IN the herb.  

    This is why I'm always saying "GET the BEST quality you can". 

    Sam E is good stuff -- it's more a supplement but it really DOES help the liver.  But it's not a "protectant" (which is mostly what milk thistle is). 

    And "dose" again reflects what you're trying to achieve -- they also use milk thistle to protect the kidneys in the case of that spider bite as I was telling you on the phone the other night and then they literally give it intravenously. 

    Milk thistle decocted in alcohol (like the Herb Pharm is) is a whole different type of "dose" than milk thistle powder. 

    You often see now on herb labels the word "standardized" -- to a degree that's simply been brought on by politically correct attempts to prevent the quality from taking a huge down-turn by the above-mentioned companies who process the weeds and 'junk' as well as the herb.  So "standardized" often simply means "averaged".

    That works against you in the case of the very well grown, higher quality herbs -- because they're really *better* than "standardized".  The herb may be a better quality which often simply means "safer" because it has less risk of contaminants or inferior plant matter.

    But just remember, "dose" is tricky, particularly with herbs because the dose depends on what you are trying to achieve with it.  What they publish as a "dose" may be to get a particular effect, rather than another one.  And it's also going to depend on quality -- because with a lesser quality there may be things IN the milk thistle powder that ought not be there (like pesticides and waste).  So a higher dose of something good quality is going to be safer than a lesser quality.  It may also be more effective at the same dose than the lesser quality. 

    We Americans tend to LOVE our numbers.  We want measurements, we want "exact", we want studies and numbers -- and sometimes that flies in the face of what may work or be recommended in THIS instance.  Again that's one of the big reasons to find a holistic vet you trust and run  that by them. 

    This is where you call Dr. Butler and see if you're uncomfortable about something.  This is where you find the good vet.

    The other caution, since this is a public forum, I'm going to make is I always BEWARE of websites quoting doses or touting the benefits of this or that **IF THEY SELL ANYTHING**.  Most of the reputable websites I know of that are stores absolutely refuse to quote a "dose" -- referring you instead to a good practitioner, simply because mis-information is SOOOO often out there.  I would be extremely nervous  about using a dose obtained from an online source like that. 

    I generally won't buy from any website (nor do I generally like using their information) if they are saying how awesome this or that product is and gee, we just happen to have it on sale today!  It can be salesmanship -- particularly if they tend to encourage the merits of this over that.  It's all a judgment call to be honest, -- just be very careful.

    Find a holistic vet you like and trust -- and run the information by them.  Ask THEM where to find good information (most of them are full of suggestions). 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    All the meds I am on for diabetes, thyroid, cholesterol, and then NSAIDs for my RA and my shoulder , my liver and kidneys are in danger of developing problems---so my doctor and druggist tell me.  however, i take a one a day cranberry capsul and also1000 mgs of mlk thistle every day and my doctor is thrilled with how my liver and kidney results come back on my blood panels.  i was in yesterday as it was time to get refill scripts on glipizide and actos and he was going over my lastblood work, and my BP yesterday, etc (112/62) and was smiiling up a storm.  So I really think these is a lot to be said about these natural   remedies/sups etc.

    • Bronze

     Sandra

    Its good to hear that its helping your kidneys.  The kidney is what Callie has told me we should worry about even more than the liver.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Gratefuldawg -- honestly Billy gained weight as well -- and yeah, there was some arthritis.  BUT I really didn't worry about getting the weight off UNTIL after he was off the steroids.  She'll lose some of the water that she gained while on the pred but it will take a while.  It took Billy FOREVER to lose the "belly" that goes with the pred.

    It's too darned critical for them to be HAPPY to eat and honestly, I just couldn't handle it.  The gain, on Billy's part, was mostly prednisone bloat.  I'm sure you're seeing some of that as well -- but this is not the time for a major diet.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Willow also put on about 6lbs after a period of losing a bit at first.  But, her appetite only went away for a short time immediately after stopping the Pred and since then she hasn't missed a meal. 

    • Bronze

    The stopping of the pred is when she started investigating her humus.  I liked using it because it seemed like it was very good for her and easy to hide the pill in.  Now I am on liverwurst and she is taking the pill just fine without trying to find it.  

    She had a couple bouts of loose stool - it seems that it happens when I try to moisturize her nose.  She licks it off as fast as I can put it on.  So I want to try to find something that is more agreeable with her body.  The vet said that vaseline wouldn't hurt and if it wasn't a cronic condition that might be true but I don't like the idea of petroleum jelly being ingested every day.

    Someone mentioned Vitamin E cream.. I searched in local stores and I didn't see it (Walmart and Walgreens).  I saw some on Amazon though.  Might try that.  Been putting Olive Oil on (might also cause diahreah?) but it dosen't last very long.  No nosebleeds though since I started moisturizing.

     Yesterday I took Cyclops outside and she romped playfully with Domingo - the first time I've seen her act "puppyish" since this started.  It only lasted a few seconds but I took it as a good sign.  She is still doing her short walks and when I get to the point where I turn around she tries to keep going.. when we get back to the house she tries to keep going the other way down the road.  I just dont' want to push it.  I know being anemic she can tire easy so I stop it early.  I figure if her PCV ever goes into the 30's maybe I'll add a little more distance.

     

     

     

    • Silver

    You're a good dog dad.  Keep it up--sounds like she's doing well!  Don't know what to suggest re: the nose thing.  I don't think Ems had problems with dry nose, though she did lose some hair (and IGs look like they have very short hair, not fur) on the top of her head.  Much of her muzzle has also turned white since she got sick. :(

    Go,, Cyclops!

    <3 Wendy and Emma

    • Gold Top Dog
    GratefulDawg
    I figure if her PCV ever goes into the 30's

    WHEN -- *when* her PCV goes into the 30's :) I am thinking positive - it sounds like she is doing well!

    • Gold Top Dog

    GratefulDawg
    Someone mentioned Vitamin E cream.. I searched in local stores and I didn't see it (Walmart and Walgreens).

     

    I *think* that was me and I meant JUST Vit e.  You can buy the supplement liquid E (or just gelcaps and *** them) -- Just a drop.  Don't try to moistureize all the time -- maybe once or twice a day

    YOu might just have to smear a bit on and then loosely hold her muzzle while you massage and coo to her -- "No licking!" can become a command.  and after you count to 30 (which will give it *some* time to absorb) then give her a piece of Gerber Graduate apple or something, but you should be able to use just 1 drop of olive oil several times a day and not incur diarreha.

    Also -- liquid aloe (reconstitute some of what I sent you and try that -- it will help reduce the inflammation anway and you could add a few drops of Vit E oil right to that mixture.

    If you have any (or can get some) of "Herbal Ed's Salve" which is an HerbPharm thing (it's little pot of paste) that's good stuff.  It's beeswax and olive oil and some good herbs like calendula.  It's good stuff.

     

     

     

    • Bronze

    This is crazy Wendy.. today my wife and I were sitting in the living room and she said "Do you see how Cyclops' Muzzle has turned white?" And yes.. right on her lower jaw which used to be black as ever 2 months ago is turning white.. as in looks like she is aging fast. 

    We really need to catalog all this information and make a clearinghouse website so people know what kind of side effects to possibly expect.

     

    • Bronze

     I like the way you think!

    • Bronze

     Callie.. first of all one of your boxes came filled with Milk Thistle powder (huge bag) and Aloe and Slippery Elm.  Thanks =)

    Also.. after I wrote that last night about the vitamin E I figured it out that you cut the liquid gel cap open and squirt it on her nose!  

    Lots of people do that for themselves and I never knew it.